Pakistan, the IVC, and a Land of continuous migration and mixing

[Joe Shearer]

The ivc had better hygiene and sewage than current chunks of India, one might ask why you didn't learn from it

I thought it was already clear that none of the successor cultures had anything to do with the IVC. That the IVC was totally forgotten.

 

[panzerfaust 3]

I thought it was already clear that none of the successor cultures had anything to do with the IVC. That the IVC was totally forgotten.

 

[vasanthm]

Try to understand, and I say this with considerable empathy, that the IVC was an episode, that was never remembered in the roughly 400 or 500 years that intervened. It was re-discovered by Indians from undivided India, including a Punjabi and a Bengali.

Pakistanis need to get rid of this illusion that there is any direct lineal or linguistic or civilisational connection between the IVC and present-day nation-states.

Recent research indicates a linguistic connection between the Indus Valley Civilization and Dravidian languages, with patterns in the undeciphered script suggesting proto-Dravidian roots. Interestingly, even today, parts of Pakistan, particularly in Sindh and Balochistan, are home to communities that speak Dravidian languages, like Brahui.

Not sure if they will find more evidence to further prove this link

 

[Joe Shearer]

Recent research indicates a linguistic connection between the Indus Valley Civilization and Dravidian languages, with patterns in the undeciphered script suggesting proto-Dravidian roots.

Nothing proven. This cannot be presented as evidence of lineal, linguistic or genetic descent. It is as bad as the Indus Man hypothesis of Aitzaz Ahsan.

That does not include the genetic profiles of the ANI and the ASI. Those are tangible.

 

[r3alist]

Try to understand, and I say this with considerable empathy, that the IVC was an episode, that was never remembered in the roughly 400 or 500 years that intervened. It was re-discovered by Indians from undivided India, including a Punjabi and a Bengali.

Pakistanis need to get rid of this illusion that there is any direct lineal or linguistic or civilisational connection between the IVC and present-day nation-states.

Can you perhaps try and avoid the temptation to not shape thread discussion as per your liking.

Every time the topic is mentioned by a pak poster why do a deluge of posts need to be tolerated about how apparently Pakistan discarded it's past, took no interest and therefore should never raise what's under their ground (but say a Bengali can)

Then the next angle is the ivc is obviously more Indian and therefore Indians have historical and indeed thought suzerainty on the topic

Both or similar angles are their to suppress Pakistan based involvement on artifacts, history and civilization under their actual feet...

Nations emphasise their history however they want or can, look at the chinese

In fact look at your own insecure treatment of islamic civilizational within India, can current Indians be reasonably trusted to engage in the topic given the deep historical wounds many seem to carry

So thank you but perhaps none of your business and consider keeping a polite non-creepy distance from atleast the Pak portion of the ivc, partition is a fact at this stage.
Honestly the front...


@Musings
@FuturePAF

 

[samejjangir]

Buddhism emerged out of what we would call Hinduism nowadays. That religion shifted the civilization, and had a profound effect on events; the Buddhism empire all the way into Afghanistan for example.

Jainism is also another religion that emerged from that time. Both around 500-600 BCE. Approximately a thousand years after the start of the period of the Aryan invasions/migrations.

Remember it is about mixtures and probably Male dominated migration and intermarriage, taking over a settled population. They don’t need to be the whole population, just the top supplanting the ruling class, with their descendants getting a preferential opportunity to marry and dominate the ethnic group.

The theory is also not a massive invasion of Aryans but bands of Aryans moving in over hundreds of years. One band could have a different agenda than another.

I agree except for classifying "migration" as "invasion".

People did migrate all across. There were migrations from Central Asia to Europe, Persia and India as well as reverse migration people across the same path. There was migration of Indians & Chinese across current day Arunachal, Nepal, Uttarakhand. The mixed breed of Indians & Chinese were called "Kiratha". Burmese, Thai and most of Malay archipellago are also a mixed breed of Chinese & Indians.

It is incorrect to call these mixings and migration as "invasion".

 

[r3alist]

I agree except for classifying "migration" as "invasion".

People did migrate all across. There were migrations from Central Asia to Europe, Persia and India as well as reverse migration people across the same path. There was migration of Indians & Chinese across current day Arunachal, Nepal, Uttarakhand. The mixed breed of Indians & Chinese were called "Kiratha". Burmese, Thai and most of Malay archipellago are also a mixed breed of Chinese & Indians.

It is incorrect to call these mixings and migration as "invasion".

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[vasanthm]

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So when certain groups talk about their origins, it is always "we came and conquered" or is it actually actually "they came and conquered us"? Because if they’ve got the genetics from both sides, doesn’t that just make the whole narrative a bit ridiculous?

 

[r3alist]

So when certain groups talk about their origins, it is always "we came and conquered" or is it actually actually "they came and conquered us"? Because if they’ve got the genetics from both sides, doesn’t that just make the whole narrative a bit ridiculous?

You guys are emotional, so if someone hurt your feelings or sensibilities in another place you bring it everywhere you can

Who honestly gives a fig about genetic purity and bloodlines unless you think being a desi nazi is worth a thing in today's world too

This desi nazi ideal is not the strongest, fittest, most beautiful, most artistically refined, most intelligent, most inventive, most endowed...ahem... So who wants it and why do you think it's worth bragging about

Frankly you guys ought to want some genetic variation, instead you actually sit, wonder and discuss whether someone's great great great great grandmother might have been violated.... weirdos.

The way I see this topic is that it's fertile ground for new discovery, and hindutva sounding appropriation needs to be firmly hit out the discussion, you guys are already insecure about the last thousand years, not to be trusted

 

[vasanthm]

You guys are emotional, so if someone hurt your feelings or sensibilities in another place you bring it everywhere you can

Who honestly gives a fig about genetic purity and bloodlines unless you think being a desi nazi is worth a thing in today's world too

This desi nazi ideal is not the strongest, fittest, most beautiful, most artistically refined, most intelligent, most inventive, most endowed...ahem... So who wants it and why do you think it's worth bragging about

Frankly you guys ought to want some genetic variation, instead you actually sit, wonder and discuss whether someone's great great great great grandmother might have been violated.... weirdos.

The way I see this topic is that it's fertile ground for new discovery, and hindutva sounding appropriation needs to be firmly hit out the discussion, you guys are already insecure about the last thousand years, not to be trusted

Well, as a South Indian, we’re hardly bothered by all this, but I can’t help finding it hilarious on this forum when one group keeps proudly claiming their ancestors were the invaders. Like, congrats on the “we got conquered” or “we did the conquering” narrative. Meanwhile, the rest of us are just here, watching the show and enjoying the friendly back-and-forth.

 

[r3alist]

Well, as a South Indian, we’re hardly bothered by all this, but I can’t help finding it hilarious on this forum when one group keeps proudly claiming their ancestors were the invaders. Like, congrats on the “we got conquered” or “we did the conquering” narrative. Meanwhile, the rest of us are just here, watching the show and enjoying the friendly back-and-forth.

Keep that to your WhatsApp chats then, it's not the topic

What sort of mental adolescent gets riled up by someone making haughty claims from 400 years ago


Just be content being South Indian

 

[vasanthm]

Keep that to your WhatsApp chats then, it's not the topic

What sort of mental adolescent gets riled up by someone making naughty claims from 400 years ago


Just be content being South Indian

definitely not riled up, just enjoying the entertainment. Honestly, the “standards” here feel no different from a WhatsApp group anyway!

 

[r3alist]

definitely not riled up, just enjoying the entertainment. Honestly, the “standards” here feel no different from a WhatsApp group anyway!

Yes, well maybe not you as a main culprit but your co nationals ensure thats the case....not content with their WhatsApp groups

 

[samejjangir]

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How exactly did anyone predict that the migration was between 1500-2000BC? Does anyone have any evidence to say it was not in 3000BC or 5000BC?

Astrological evidence of 3 consecutive eclipses mentioned during Mahabharatha war puts the age at 3000BC during which time there was already kingdoms extending from India to central Asia.

 

[r3alist]

How exactly did anyone predict that the migration was between 1500-2000BC? Does anyone have any evidence to say it was not in 3000BC or 5000BC?

Astrological evidence of 3 consecutive eclipses mentioned during Mahabharatha war puts the age at 3000BC during which time there was already kingdoms extending from India to central Asia.

Journal of human genetics is cited

I found this

Where did the Indus Valley people come from?

Discover the world’s best science and medicine | Nature.com

www.nature.com