Pakistan, the IVC, and a Land of continuous migration and mixing

[Pakistan Space Agency]

... I mean you have not kept the religion that came out of that civilization and settled for something from Middle east. ...

Which religion came of that civilisation exactly? Don't tell me it's Hinduism because that seems to be what originated in India (Ganga Yamuna) and not Pakistan (Indus Valley Civilization).

Also, why should people keep some ancient obsolete belief system when something better is available?

 

[Farhan23]

in all truthfulness there were never Aryan invasions but indus valley invasions into subcontinent and they called these from the indus valley Aryans.

These who invaded the Subcontinent were certainly not the Iranians but groups who split from the Iranians thousands of years ago were the said Aryans who invaded subcontinent and they were from Current day Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Majority of them from current day PAKISTAN.

The So-called Pathans, Punjabis and Zindis, Tajiks were the so-called Aryans and are the only remanants of the Aryans that split from Iran thousands of years ago and the Pathans being the closest once who split from the Iranians most recent.

Hence in my honest opinion all this story is misunderstood. The Aryans are here today. They were moving into the proper subcontinent and note Indus valley was not part of the subcontinent and the name got stock by mistake.. Indus valley and Sub-continent are two different entities..

The Aryans were called the people from the Indus valley which was to the north of the subcontinent they were people of lighter complextion compared to these in the subcontinent

 

[r3alist]

Also, why should people keep some ancient obsolete belief system when something better is available?

Yes, why don't the geeks still believe in Zeus

Why don't the Italians still follow mars and Jupiter, instead of being seat the holy Roman empire

Or the Persians lost their way after Mithras


The actual reality is these people had the vitality and ability to absorb the new... perhaps?

 

[Distant_Observer]

Yes, why don't the geeks still believe in Zeus

Why don't the Italians still follow mars and Jupiter, instead of being seat the holy Roman empire

Or the Persians lost their way after Mithras


The actual reality is these people had the vitality and ability to absorb the new... perhaps?

Our IVC history is like Zoroastrianism for Iran. Gangas hate Islam so this is another way of having a dig at us. They think with this rhetoric we will disown our history so they can claim it. Do not fall for this. Own it all, every bit of it.

Look how big South Asia is.


It's like Tunisia trying to own Northern France history

There is no such thing as India or ancient India pre partition. I don't know what your history and nor do I care to know is but what has been constant is IVC, Indus, its geography and people.

 

[r3alist]

Our IVC history is like Zoroastrianism for Iran. Gangas hate Islam so this is another way of having a dig at us.

Look how big South Asia is.
View attachment 96103

It's like Tunisia trying to own Northern France history

There is no such thing as India or ancient India pre partition. I don't know what your history and nor do I care to know is but what has been constant is IVC, Indus, its geography and people.

Yes indeed, a simple answer is needed.... It's the history at your feet

Then invariably a not so polite answer is needed.... please keep your distance

 

[vasanthm]

Funny how, outside of this forum, no one in Pakistan, including your government, seems interested in claiming it. Maybe if someone pitched it to the generals as a chance to rake in some tourist dollars, they might suddenly care

By the way, the Indus Valley Civilization isn’t limited to sites like Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa in Pakistan. On the Indian side, places like Dholavira, Rakhigarhi, Lothal, and Kalibangan also form part of this heritage

 

[Oscar]

Well, as a South Indian, we’re hardly bothered by all this, but I can’t help finding it hilarious on this forum when one group keeps proudly claiming their ancestors were the invaders. Like, congrats on the “we got conquered” or “we did the conquering” narrative. Meanwhile, the rest of us are just here, watching the show and enjoying the friendly back-and-forth.

I have to agree with this -

And more importantly - also laugh at the rather pointless hate thrown at muslims within the north compared to the south.

Bhaktoras spew out ad nauseum that Islam in India spread mainly through conquest, but most invasions, like those of Mahmud of Ghazni and Muhammad of Ghor, were focused on wealth and power, not conversion. Temples were targeted because they held immense riches, not as a religious agenda. Islam’s broader spread came through other means, with Sufi saints playing a key role in introducing its spiritual and egalitarian ideals. Marginalized groups, drawn to the promise of inclusion, embraced the faith.

Oddly enough the idea of “class” still petered through eventually with the Syed and non Syed concepts.

As far as Urdu is concerned - it’s origins too are unfortunately made for political pandering to the ignorant and hateful.

The language evolved as a linguistic blend of local Prakrit, Sanskrit, and Persian during medieval India, added into by Arabic and Turkic influences. Developed in military camps and marketplaces, it became a common language across diverse communities. Its contributions from both Hindu and Muslim poets, reflecting a shared cultural heritage.

Again - unfortunately a case of Bhaktoras embodying the very “rejection” ideals they have come here to “denounce”

 

[Oscar]

Funny how, outside of this forum, no one in Pakistan, including your government, seems interested in claiming it. Maybe if someone pitched it to the generals as a chance to rake in some tourist dollars, they might suddenly care

By the way, the Indus Valley Civilization isn’t limited to sites like Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa in Pakistan. On the Indian side, places like Dholavira, Rakhigarhi, Lothal, and Kalibangan also form part of this heritage

Contrary to your claim - it is promoted quite actively in education - in museums and so on. However, there is a disconnect where it is claimed it was wiped out entirely (almost an implicit genetic erasure) by Aryans. Next - Islam is portrayed to have come into India as a complete conversion (including genetics) not as implicit through formal education but very explicitly through religious education and “folk tales”.

Part of it has to do with the maginot’s line in Pakistan as the Indus - with the west claiming Afghan heritage outright due to ethnic makeup - and this also comes from the origins of Pakistan in UP/Hydrabadi communities based on their “syed/hashmi/abbasi” culture even though the lineage may not be that tracable.

 

[r3alist]

Funny how, outside of this forum, no one in Pakistan, including your government, seems interested in claiming it. Maybe if someone pitched it to the generals as a chance to rake in some tourist dollars, they might suddenly care

By the way, the Indus Valley Civilization isn’t limited to sites like Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa in Pakistan. On the Indian side, places like Dholavira, Rakhigarhi, Lothal, and Kalibangan also form part of this heritage

If you think ivc is for "claiming" rather than exploring that affirms what I have been saying

It's simply there in Pakistan and if that bothers you find another thread

No amount of weasel arguments can alter this, as much as you might try

 

[vasanthm]

If you think ivc is for "claiming" rather than exploring that affirms what I have been saying

It's simply there in Pakistan and if that bothers you find another thread

No amount of weasel arguments can alter this, as much as you might try

It’s simply there in Pakistan and in India as well. I don’t quite understand the waffling in your argument.

Also the Indus Valley Civilization was not just some single village in your hinterlands. It was a vast civilization spread across large areas of both countries, with significant sites in India as well.

What exploration has Pakistan done regarding the IVC? Neither you nor your government seems genuinely invested in the idea. As your fellow poster mentioned, even your school textbooks are disconnected in this regard

 

[r3alist]

It’s simply there in Pakistan and in India as well. I don’t quite understand the waffling in your argument.

Also the Indus Valley Civilization was not just some single village in your hinterlands. It was a vast civilization spread across large areas of both countries, with significant sites in India as well.

What exploration has Pakistan done regarding the IVC? Neither you nor your government seems genuinely invested in the idea. As your fellow poster mentioned, even your school textbooks are disconnected in this regard

You say i waffle then proceed to waffle yourself

I am saying something simple, if you want to preclude Pakistani ownership/involvement and Pakistanis from the ivc story, which is under their feet, then find another forum or thread


Your single thrust here is not contributing to the topic

 

[FuturePAF]

Can you perhaps try and avoid the temptation to not shape thread discussion as per your liking.

Every time the topic is mentioned by a pak poster why do a deluge of posts need to be tolerated about how apparently Pakistan discarded it's past, took no interest and therefore should never raise what's under their ground (but say a Bengali can)

Then the next angle is the ivc is obviously more Indian and therefore Indians have historical and indeed thought suzerainty on the topic

Both or similar angles are their to suppress Pakistan based involvement on artifacts, history and civilization under their actual feet...

Nations emphasise their history however they want or can, look at the chinese

In fact look at your own insecure treatment of islamic civilizational within India, can current Indians be reasonably trusted to engage in the topic given the deep historical wounds many seem to carry

So thank you but perhaps none of your business and consider keeping a polite non-creepy distance from atleast the Pak portion of the ivc, partition is a fact at this stage.
Honestly the front...


@Musings
@FuturePAF

From what I understand the entire population of the IVC wasn’t wiped out, with the Bronze Age collapse (1500-1100 BCE) : environmental disaster is the current hypothesis. The population declined and it was in that weakened state that the aryans moved in. There was mixing, upon mixing upon mixing, until the present day.

The present ethnicities, especially the populations in present day Sindh and southern Punjab still have genetic links to those people from the IVC. More generic work and archeological work should be done to show this. Pakistan should be sending people to study Egyptology and build up the archeological department similarly.

I’m not saying a large part of the Indian population is not a descendant of this ancestry as well, but that the majority of the IVC territory falls in modern day Pakistan and modern day Pakistanis have a current culture that arouse in its unique and gradual way. Just like the Egyptians, they can claim their ancestors but also say they no longer follow most of that ancient Egyptian culture. Egyptians being mostly Muslim and Coptic Christian’s doesn’t make them any less Egyptian.

 

[mythbuster]

The Indus Valley Civilization is undeniably a cornerstone of India’s heritage. While it predates both Hinduism and Islam, its cultural and civilizational essence has lived on through India’s continuity of traditions, practices, and values. The sites in modern India, like Dholavira and Rakhigarhi, are not just archaeological finds—they’re part of an uninterrupted cultural legacy that shaped the Indian subcontinent.

In contrast, Pakistan seems almost ashamed or indifferent to its IVC heritage. Do they even have a dedicated museum or a serious archaeological department to celebrate it? They’ve done little to preserve or promote the IVC as part of their identity because it doesn’t fit neatly into their narrative of being an Islamic state.

The fact is, heritage isn’t just about physical sites—it’s about preserving and owning the cultural and historical essence. While India proudly acknowledges and integrates the IVC into its story, Pakistan appears to brush it aside, choosing to erase its ancient, shared legacy in favor of a more convenient identity. The IVC is India’s past, present, and future—Pakistan barely seems to care about it.

Pakistan’s attitude toward the Indus Valley Civilization really shows how disconnected they are from their own roots. Instead of embracing the legacy of the people who built one of the world’s oldest and most advanced civilizations, they seem obsessed with claiming ancestry from a handful of invading soldiers and rulers from foreign lands—Arabs, Persians, Central Asians, you name it. They’d rather tie their identity to these outsiders than acknowledge the millions of ancestors who actually lived, thrived, and built societies on this land for thousands of years.

It’s bizarre when you think about it. Most of Pakistan’s population today descends from the people of the Indus Valley, yet they ignore this in favor of a romanticized connection to invaders. It’s like they’re ashamed of their own land’s history. Meanwhile, India has embraced this shared heritage, celebrating and preserving the IVC as a core part of its identity.

No point in fretting about about that were insignificant to begin with .....IVC produce nothing of significance in any field that is worth going Gaga about ....you carp about sewerage system as much as you want , it doesn't amount to much .....' there is one constant in the universe and that's change , civilizations don't have immunity from these changes .

 

[vasanthm]

You say i waffle then proceed to waffle yourself

I am saying something simple, if you want to preclude Pakistani ownership/involvement and Pakistanis from the ivc story, which is under their feet, then find another forum or thread


Your single thrust here is not contributing to the topic

I'm not trying to preclude or imply anything, just stating the fact that Pakistan does not seem particularly interested. Perhaps you should direct your concerns to your own archaeology and academic departments rather than taking issue with me for stating facts.

On our side of the border, significant investments are being made—museums are being created, studies are being funded, and discoveries are actively linked to the IVC. For instance, artifacts unearthed at Keeladi in Tamil Nadu have prompted some scholars to speculate about larger links to the IVC, showcasing the depth of exploration and connections being pursued in India.

No one is denying that the IVC is also part of Pakistan’s history, but the lack of interest from the Pakistani state and its citizens—whatever the historical reasons may be—is simply a reality.

 

[vasanthm]

No point in fretting about about that were insignificant to begin with .....IVC produce nothing of significance in any field that is worth going Gaga about ....you carp about sewerage system as much as you want , it doesn't amount to much .....' there is one constant in the universe and that's change , civilizations don't have immunity from these changes.

Whether or not the IVC produced anything 'significant' is irrelevant. What matters is that it remains an active area of academic and historical interest on the Indian side. We are committed to studying and understanding the civilizational history of our region, regardless of its perceived utility, because such exploration serves to deepen our knowledge and connection to the past.