Pakistan, the IVC, and a Land of continuous migration and mixing

[r3alist]

Oh, the irony of calling others insecure while your entire national identity is built on rejecting your own land's history to claim foreign roots. As for weaving a 'grand narrative,' maybe it's hard when you’ve spent decades sidelining your pre-Islamic past. But sure, keep lecturing about 'relevance'—it’s amusing, if nothing else.

Land doesn't have religion, please stop self projecting and stick to your patch in the south, it's a continent away and you are also similarly different as a people, so just respect personal space

Ah, coming from a UK Pakistani, the irony is rich. Let me guess—Bradford? Or maybe still upset about family reunions doubling as matchmaking? Focus on the discussion instead of weak personal digs

Lol, why so angry, are you bothered or not....

 

[r3alist]

My comments were strictly tied to the IVC, and to no other manifestation of culture during the second urbanisation phase, that is, from roughly 1500 BC to date.

There is no IVC in Bengal; that insulting remark was quite clearly personal and will be treated as such.

Post 44 you mentioned a Bengali and Punjabi as if that were relevant

The regressive elements do, and they exist on both sides of the Radcliffe Line. There are even some in Bengal.

Yes, but perhaps let's focus the ones on the thread who cannot stomach ivc and Pakistan being in association, the topic.

That

That is for your moderators to manage. Why put the blame on those posting?

Ah wonderful, those instigating diversions are not at fault, the repeat offenders... It's the mods, (your colleagues) at fault

Just like that Joe? really...

 

[Joe Shearer]

Post 44 you mentioned a Bengali and Punjabi as if that were relevant

It was. They didn't parachute in from outer space.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes, but perhaps let's focus the ones on the thread who cannot stomach ivc and Pakistan being in association, the topic.

How would you know about the topic? You spent 90% of your posts on persons and personalities.

Ah wonderful, those instigating diversions are not at fault, the repeat offenders... It's the mods, (your colleagues) at fault

Just like that Joe? really...

Just like that.

 

[Musings]

Indus civilisation is part and parcel of Pakistan.

My take is the civilization belongs to the land and soil. That soil is today known as Pakistan. The heart of the IVC is Pakistani - sad that Pakistan isnt looking after and treasuring part of our history - investing and protecting......shame.

 

[Musings]

How would you know about the topic? You spent 90% of your posts on persons and personalities.


Just like that.

But its ok for you poster boy vasanthm to insinuate r3ealist is from Bradford and back handed compliments?
This topic is fascinating but as usual the regular fries take this opportunity to belittle people.

 

[Musings]

Dude, are you still in High school. But seriously, which part of the UK are you from?

@Joe Shearer

How would you evaluate this post? Does it add to the discussion?

 

[Oscar]

History, origin etc should be a pursuit of curiosity... Unfortunately, I have seen it become a lot like a pursuit of identity or pride. That itself makes the pursuit useless and tainted. When people need a certain finding beforehand, its not even worth the effort of investigation.

Agreed - if anything identity is taken from the most recent events and history is used to perhaps layer on it.

The British have more impact on the identity of India and Pakistan from the systems and infrastructure than lets say the Mughals or Ashoka for that matter. Those remain as historical symbols and their practices, systems , composition of “subjects” have much less relevance compared to what is Modern India or Pakistan. Trying to shove in these aspects as “identities” risks both diluting the cultural balance that existed within them(proof is already there) and impacting everything from social norms to education and technological advancement.

I brought up Urdu for a reason - it’s origins , ease of understanding by those that speak Hindi(which was less far apart to it than it is today) simply made it another language of the subcontinent instead of one that is ostracized for being “muslim” . When even hindi (until the recent sansktiziation drive) has elements of persian and urdu terms in it. But by that introduction of religious aspects in Sanskirt and the over arabization of Urdu - the wide appeal of these languages will start getting hit.

All because of political rather than any true actual cultural or religious reasons

 

[Oscar]

Something that needs to be emphasised. It is increasingly becoming clear that the migrants speaking Indo-Aryan encountered only the survivors of the IVC, living in debased urban and semi-urban surroundings.

Most of British drama presented as archaeology is laughable; the arrow of suspicion points to the Aryans indeed! Sir John has much to answer for.

To the victor goes the narrative -
How much of history is shaped by those in power with their bias instead of objective interpretation.

 

[Oscar]

I am really grateful for this grounded and sensible post.

However, I would like to add that there is evidence that what evolved was Hindustani, and that Hindi was an 18th century cultural revisionist act, that artificially dredged Sanskrit or Prakrit words out of the common vocabulary and added lavishly to fill in the gaps. This was a parallel to the re-establishment of a political Hinduism that began with the Arya Samaj and ripened into the RSS in 1920.

I believe that Hindustani and Urdu could be termed as one language with a wide dialect berth.
The hyper persian version being called Urdu versus the more “grounded” street level version is what was Hindi.

If anything what is spoken in Pakistan today resembles Hindustani more than the upper clasd gentry ideals of Urdu

 

[FuturePAF]

@FuturePAF
Do you want disinformation to be restricted? This would have to be done by your formal report.

I’d rather not, better for members to bring up misconceptions and let them be disproven by the rest of us. If I see something egregious, I’ll report it. But thanks for the heads up and offer.

 

[Joe Shearer]

My take is the civilization belongs to the land and soil. That soil is today known as Pakistan. The heart of the IVC is Pakistani - sad that Pakistan isnt looking after and treasuring part of our history - investing and protecting......shame.

That doesn't work. No part of the IVC came down to posterity. To no section of the sub-continent. There was a clean break, and the only link that today's places and people have with that is the genetic link of the present inhabitants of the sub-continent in the form of the genetic profiles known to geneticists as the ANI and ASI profiles.

Pakistan has a legitimate role to play as custodians of the archaeological legacy of that part of the IVC that lies within the nation-state of Pakistan, including the two marquee sites of Mohenjodaro and Harappa, and many more.

It needs to be remembered that the IVC sprawled over a very large area, in terms of the locations of its urban centres. So it is not strictly accurate to say that the IVC belongs to the land and soil, because much of the land and soil are actually not in Pakistan.

 

[Joe Shearer]

But its ok for you poster boy vasanthm to insinuate r3ealist is from Bradford and back handed compliments?

No it isn't.

I am now looking for those remarks to delete them and to warn the member accordingly. I've started, although I only got to see the bulk of the exchanges around 9 this morning.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Joe Shearer

How would you evaluate this post? Does it add to the discussion?

I had deleted it two or three hours earlier, and am surprised to see it still intact. Am deleting it again, and will comb through the rest of the exchanges an hour or so from now.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I believe that Hindustani and Urdu could be termed as one language with a wide dialect berth.

It was one language with a difference only in the script used. Premchand wrote in Urdu.