Pakistan UAVs News & Discussions

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

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[FuturePAF]

Does Pakistan have a UAV it could put a system like this on?

BriteStorm Miniature Electronic Warfare System Can Allow Small Drones To Create Big Ghost Formations

Leonardo's BriteStorm is designed to be small and cheap enough to be installed in various drones and other platforms, even expendables ones.

www.twz.com

 

[CSAW]

 

[Ak01]

Does Pakistan have a UAV it could put a system like this on?

BriteStorm Miniature Electronic Warfare System Can Allow Small Drones To Create Big Ghost Formations

Leonardo's BriteStorm is designed to be small and cheap enough to be installed in various drones and other platforms, even expendables ones.

www.twz.com

we dont even need a system LIKE this.

Leonardo literally offered us BriteCloud for JF-17.

This same system was selected for USAF F-35s now.

In our infinite wisdom we turned them down, its a really capable system and would increase survivability significantly.

 

[Tank131]

we dont even need a system LIKE this.

Leonardo literally offered us BriteCloud for JF-17.

This same system was selected for USAF F-35s now.

In our infinite wisdom we turned them down, its a really capable system and would increase survivability significantly.

Back in the initial stages of block 3, @Quwa, myself and others often envisioned an EW suite around the Vixen-1000E, BriteCloud DRFM, Skyward IRST, and ALR-400 from Indra. We got 1/4.

 

[Ak01]

Back in the initial stages of block 3, @Quwa, myself and others often envisioned an EW suite around the Vixen-1000E, BriteCloud DRFM, Skyward IRST, and ALR-400 from Indra. We got 1/4.

We would have probably even seen improved RWR like the elt 162, the issue is, vixen was doomed from the start. We had no access to any missile to work on it with. It was probably a punt at trying to access meteor which would have been shut down fast.

IMO, the most logical solution would have been to call upon the Italians and turn CAMM-ER into a BVRAAM alongside potentially even further developing it into a MR/LR solution. We could have had some in house production and gained some experience with this. Such a solution would allow us total flexibility in the sense that we could have something to pair with our local radars, with our F-16s, for use from ships and land and so on. But as usual, the PN placed a CAMM-ER order, the Air force went their own way and the Army did too, instead of deciding on a tri services missile for a category that overlapped and was fulfilled at the same time, everyone pissed their money into the wind and we ended up gaining nothing.

 

[Haji Thanos]

We would have probably even seen improved RWR like the elt 162, the issue is, vixen was doomed from the start. We had no access to any missile to work on it with. It was probably a punt at trying to access meteor which would have been shut down fast.

IMO, the most logical solution would have been to call upon the Italians and turn CAMM-ER into a BVRAAM alongside potentially even further developing it into a MR/LR solution. We could have had some in house production and gained some experience with this. Such a solution would allow us total flexibility in the sense that we could have something to pair with our local radars, with our F-16s, for use from ships and land and so on. But as usual, the PN placed a CAMM-ER order, the Air force went their own way and the Army did too, instead of deciding on a tri services missile for a category that overlapped and was fulfilled at the same time, everyone pissed their money into the wind and we ended up gaining nothing.

irrelevant to the thread but jus to add a point
paf should have gone for Mirage F1 instead of surplus mirage 3s
this south african comapny now probably paramount group installed rd93 in an F1
big plus for paf logistics

 

[MasterChief]

irrelevant to the thread but jus to add a point
paf should have gone for Mirage F1 instead of surplus mirage 3s
this south african comapny now probably paramount group installed rd93 in an F1
big plus for paf logistics

The were waiting for F16 approval all through the 90s, that F16 crush was hard

 

[Oscar]

we dont even need a system LIKE this.

Leonardo literally offered us BriteCloud for JF-17.

This same system was selected for USAF F-35s now.

In our infinite wisdom we turned them down, its a really capable system and would increase survivability significantly.

simple

 

[Tank131]

We would have probably even seen improved RWR like the elt 162, the issue is, vixen was doomed from the start. We had no access to any missile to work on it with. It was probably a punt at trying to access meteor which would have been shut down fast.

IMO, the most logical solution would have been to call upon the Italians and turn CAMM-ER into a BVRAAM alongside potentially even further developing it into a MR/LR solution. We could have had some in house production and gained some experience with this. Such a solution would allow us total flexibility in the sense that we could have something to pair with our local radars, with our F-16s, for use from ships and land and so on. But as usual, the PN placed a CAMM-ER order, the Air force went their own way and the Army did too, instead of deciding on a tri services missile for a category that overlapped and was fulfilled at the same time, everyone pissed their money into the wind and we ended up gaining nothing.

I think its a great idea but at the time may have been a little impractical with CAMM/CAMM-ER which, as i understand it are basically derived from ASRAAM. I doubt very much that UK government would allow ASRAAM or a long range variant to come into Pakistan's possession and im not sure there would be much utility for Leonardo to develop such a missile themselves. As you said the western package was doomed without a long range missile. I think this was one of the major factors behind R darter/T darter rumors. That would would have potentially solved the BVR issue for PAF whereas they MAA-1 Pirahna may have been employed for WVR on any such package. As such sadly nothing materialized. I still think brightcloud could be integrated with Blk 3 but tgat ship has likely sailed. Maybe with PFX when they have either an indigenous radar (though frankly they should consider approaching Turkey about Co-development of a local Ozgur variant which they would have proprietary control of to allow them to use local, NATO, turkish, and chinese munitions with local software as a firewall between both technology ecosystems (to protect interests of all sides)). This would allow more seamless integration of European tech.

Not sure there is as of yet a chinese or turkish alternative to BriteCloud. But as it is a Selex/Leonardo product it may potentially be acquirable by PAF for PFX and possibly KAAN if that actually materializes.

irrelevant to the thread but jus to add a point
paf should have gone for Mirage F1 instead of surplus mirage 3s
this south african comapny now probably paramount group installed rd93 in an F1
big plus for paf logistics

Dont really agree. While people debate this all the time as F1 would potentially have given PAF access to BVR much earlier via the Matra Super 530 (if france sold it), the F1 actually has an abysmal a2a record. Now there can be a multitude of reasons for this, including the fact it often faced superior opposing aircraft (especially F-14 in Iran/Iraq war, and NATO aircraft in Gulf wars). Still PAF already operated Mirage 3 and V in numbers. What they frankly should have done was source the FIAR Grifo-M radars and marry them to other avionics from S Africa akin to those on Cheetah C (basically supplanting the Elta El-2001 with the Grifo M (which had better range anyways) and hit Kentron/Denel to sell them R-darter and u-darter. There was always a belief that this was done but no clear proof of it. ATLAS also installed Rd-33 on Cheetah (itself a derivative of Mirage 3) so that part could have been done as well. If you look at what IAI did with Kfir block 60, you see what Rose Mirages could have been. But there are many such what ifs. Like what if PAF had decided to make F-20 tigersharks in house rather than buy F-16 (would have had access to sparrows and started in house aviation industry far sooner, albeit with an inferior product...like they did 25 years later).

 

[Tank131]

simple

Is it that PAF Turned them down on BriteCloud or that they would need to buy all the suit for brite cloud? Like i doubt brite cloud plays with Chinese systems well. Maybe they would have needed the Leonardo computers and radars to make it function but as we said, sans weaponry, it wouldn't be feasible. Need Meteor and Asraam for that deal to work.

 

[Ak01]

simple

Really though?
Its a system designed to be expendable. The RAF ordered them at 27m for their entire tornado fleet.

 

[Ak01]

I think its a great idea but at the time may have been a little impractical with CAMM/CAMM-ER which, as i understand it are basically derived from ASRAAM. I doubt very much that UK government would allow ASRAAM or a long range variant to come into Pakistan's possession and im not sure there would be much utility for Leonardo to develop such a missile themselves. As you said the western package was doomed without a long range missile. I think this was one of the major factors behind R darter/T darter rumors. That would would have potentially solved the BVR issue for PAF whereas they MAA-1 Pirahna may have been employed for WVR on any such package. As such sadly nothing materialized. I still think brightcloud could be integrated with Blk 3 but tgat ship has likely sailed. Maybe with PFX when they have either an indigenous radar (though frankly they should consider approaching Turkey about Co-development of a local Ozgur variant which they would have proprietary control of to allow them to use local, NATO, turkish, and chinese munitions with local software as a firewall between both technology ecosystems (to protect interests of all sides)). This would allow more seamless integration of European tech.

Not sure there is as of yet a chinese or turkish alternative to BriteCloud. But as it is a Selex/Leonardo product it may potentially be acquirable by PAF for PFX and possibly KAAN if that actually materializes.

Dont really agree. While people debate this all the time as F1 would potentially have given PAF access to BVR much earlier via the Matra Super 530 (if france sold it), the F1 actually has an abysmal a2a record. Now there can be a multitude of reasons for this, including the fact it often faced superior opposing aircraft (especially F-14 in Iran/Iraq war, and NATO aircraft in Gulf wars). Still PAF already operated Mirage 3 and V in numbers. What they frankly should have done was source the FIAR Grifo-M radars and marry them to other avionics from S Africa akin to those on Cheetah C (basically supplanting the Elta El-2001 with the Grifo M (which had better range anyways) and hit Kentron/Denel to sell them R-darter and u-darter. There was always a belief that this was done but no clear proof of it. ATLAS also installed Rd-33 on Cheetah (itself a derivative of Mirage 3) so that part could have been done as well. If you look at what IAI did with Kfir block 60, you see what Rose Mirages could have been. But there are many such what ifs. Like what if PAF had decided to make F-20 tigersharks in house rather than buy F-16 (would have had access to sparrows and started in house aviation industry far sooner, albeit with an inferior product...like they did 25 years later).

Italy- MBDA Italy owns the IP for CAMM-ER and its a wholly domestic Italian development.

This is why we were able to buy it. MBDA UK was pitching CAMM to Indian Navy at the same time.

 

[Tank131]

Italy- MBDA Italy owns the IP for CAMM-ER and its a wholly domestic Italian development.

This is why we were able to buy it. MBDA UK was pitching CAMM to Indian Navy at the same time.

That part I get. But what im saying is why would they have made a missile from CAMM-ER? CAMM itself is derived from an A2A missile (ASRAAM). They arent going to reverse engineer back to ASRAAM and put a booster on it, JUST to get Pakistan a long range A2A missile. And selling Pakistan a SAM is very different than providing the ASRAAM. There is limited money for Italy to do so when it already gets metoer and asraam.

 

[Ak01]

That part I get. But what im saying is why would they have made a missile from CAMM-ER? CAMM itself is derived from an A2A missile (ASRAAM). They arent going to reverse engineer back to ASRAAM and put a booster on it, JUST to get Pakistan a long range A2A missile. And selling Pakistan a SAM is very different than providing the ASRAAM. There is limited money for Italy to do so when it already gets metoer and asraam.

Again, the issue is you're looking at CAMM-ER as ASRAAM. You're also looking quite narrowly at this.

The simple answer is, a CAMM-ER derived BVRAAM would be relatively easy to produce and add another VLRAAM option to the market.

They dont need to go back to ASRAAM. CAMM-ER in its current form, modified to be air launched would be perfectly sufficient. You're optimising flight profiles, also probably be able to shed some weight, etc etc. Nobody is providing asraam and nobody is saying this would be Pakistan specific. However, imagine a program that gave us some experience, working with a member of the 'A TEAM' of Euro missile design, allowing us to work with modern propellants and systems to locally produce a camm-er derived bvraam.

Imagine the doors also opened for italy. How many countries can offer a full avionics and missile package?
Russia(?)
US
Israel
China
France

Nobody else.

Italy however, has a lax ish arms export policy and CAN provide avionics, but is at the mercy of the US or MBDA to allow BVRAAM exports to compliment their avionics. Imagine an ITAR free, less restrictive but capable western missile and avionics suite. I can just imagine Egypt, tons of Gulf states and of course Pakistan frothing at the mouth...