Israel’s Genocide in Gaza | 2023- till present

[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

Also if Arabs are such weak people (and in general all Middle Eastern people) why cannot 250 million big nuclear armed Islamic Republic of Pakistan not attack the Zionists and the US? What stops Pakistan? Show us all how strong and mighty you are in front of the US/West/NATO and become immortal in the eyes of Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims worldwide. Take the mantle of Muslim leadership.

Oh boy!
Again Arabia doing A-rab stuff!

This is not a thread about Pakistan. Pakistan for all it's faults fought superpowers next door in Afghanistan. Has a several times larger enemy to the east. Volunteered in previous Arab-Israel conflicts and protected the Monarchies.

Last! Pakistan is probably the Biggest hope for Palestine along with Turkiye.
Arabs have a master who they seek to please...
Pakistan is a captive of circumstance and system of shackles... breaking them free is more a mental exercise than physical.

Now start reporting and stick to the topic instead of harping on Arab greatness of yore!

 

[The SC]

Brother, look at my post from above:



The Arabs gave a lot of financial help, no doubt. That was enormous. I’m not denying it.

Also the first groups of Mujahedin were Arabs..

The Arabs at War in Afghanistan​

https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/the-arabs-at-war-in-afghanistan/


The man who eventually became the leader of the Afghan Arab mujahideen
was a Palestinian national, Sheikh Abdullah al Azzam. He joined the Palestine
Liberation Organization (PLO) in the late 1960s and took part in operations
against the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) after the 1967 war, which saw Israeli
soldiers occupy his home village in the West Bank. Disillusioned with the
secular approach of the PLO at that time, Azzam left the PLO and went on to
complete a Doctorate in Islamic Jurisprudence in Cairo, where he also became
a personal friend of the family of the deceased Sayyid Qutb (McGregor, 2003).
In 1980, Azzam and Bin Laden established Maktab al-Khidmat lil
Mujahideen al-Arab (Office of Services for the Arab Mujahideen) in Pakistan,
which was a funnel for the recruiting, funding and training of fighters from all
over the world who wanted to take part in the jihad against the Soviet occu-
pation of Afghanistan (Burke, 2004, p. 3). Bin Laden personally funded each
fighter with a flight ticket, accommodation in a guesthouse and a stipend of
around $300 per month (Wright, 2011, p. 117). It has been assessed that more
than 20 000 volunteers passed through the Office of Services, going on to be
trained as fighters. The majority of them took part in military action against the
Soviet Army in Afghanistan (Mohamedou, 2011, p. 17)

file:///C:/Users/PC/Downloads/-9781800371293.00009.pdf

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[_Arabia_]

I see some of your points and I am historically not into the Arab bashing here as generalizing hundreds of millions of people, most of whom don't have the oil wealth and would face the music of the current Western dominated economic order. Even those with oil wealth are deeply vested in the West and know that, until there is alternate financial order, they risk losing trillions of their investment within days if they go stray. And what to speak of the tens of millions of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and other who work in GCC countries and provide enormous revenues to their countries of origin the GCC economies shut down due to wars and/or sanctions?
We all need to be aware of the ignorance of the expats with their grandiose plans of a world order. They should live in their countries of origin like common folks to see the reality of life there. I was raised in solid upper middle class family in Karachi but abject poverty was still all around me; there were literally straw huts housing within few minutes walk from my house. Such perspective is important to have in our lives in general.
PS. You remind me of a certain Jhungary (Chinese, American, Hungarian, Mongolian, German... could never figure out his ethnicity. LOL!) who wrote long posts to the point of making several PhD dissertations in the Russia-Ukraine war thread in the old PDF! LOL!

Don't misunderstand me. Me writing that the Pakistani military establishment and military is what has held Pakistan together and been the de facto either rulers directly (through coups) or the deep state does not equal me using the rhetoric of a certain group of people in the region (you can probably guess who they are as well) and stating that Pakistan is some kind of Western puppet. There is a difference between being overall aligned with the West on certain fronts and not having an independent foreign policy. Same goes for every Arab state. I would even argue that even small Arab states such as UAE often have a foreign policy completely at odds with the West.

So this whole "puppet rhetoric" is for children and simpletons who don't understand how states work and international politics.

Brother, look at my post from above:



The Arabs gave a lot of financial help, no doubt. That was enormous. I’m not denying it.

As well as 1000's of martyrs. Some reported 5.000 Saudi Arabians died (if not many more in fact - don't recall the numbers) fighting the barbaric Soviets in Afghanistan and people of that ilk would have fought for Pakistanis as well if the USSR had attacked Pakistan. I can admire their causes just like Arab and Muslim volunteers in Bosnia and Chechnya. Once again some were bad apples and did un-Islamic things but majority had a pure cause and nobody can deny their bravery leaving wealth and security.

I remember watching an Arabic Al-Jazeera documentary from 15-20 years ago and it was shown how the locals of Kandahar and elsewhere were keeping the graves of the foreign Mujahideen in shape and how they showed their gratitude. I was impressed by that and would like, should that ever take place, for us to repay those Afghans if/when they fight against such an aggressor in case of an attack on KSA and in case of volunteers arriving which would certainly be the case.

Same way I admire and respect Hezbollah fighters on the frontline even though I disagree with that movement in terms of what they did in Syria on behalf of the Iranian regime and some of Nasrallah's speeches in the past but at his heart he was an proud Arab patriot and wanted the best for Lebanon and the local Lebanese Shias had every right to resist the Israelis before and now just like Hamas.,

 

[_Arabia_]

Oh boy!
Again Arabia doing A-rab stuff!

This is not a thread about Pakistan. Pakistan for all it's faults fought superpowers next door in Afghanistan. Has a several times larger enemy to the east. Volunteered in previous Arab-Israel conflicts and protected the Monarchies.

Last! Pakistan is probably the Biggest hope for Palestine along with Turkiye.
Arabs have a master who they seek to please...
Pakistan is a captive of circumstance and system of shackles... breaking them free is more a mental exercise than physical.

Now start reporting and stick to the topic instead of harping on Arab greatness of yore!

As long as you are incapable of having a civilized discussion without resorting to name-calling, your usual moronic anti-Arab rhetoric, I will simply continue to ignore your posts as they are not worth replying to nor are you (as usual) even reading what I am writing. No offence. If you want a sane discussion try another approach.

As for the topics at hand they were already discussed and many Pakistani users agreed with my takes which frankly are hard to argue against based on facts on the ground.

 

[_Arabia_]

@OakTree23
As for post 9/11, remember that back then the US was even stronger and there was no China or Russia to counter the global balance. They were a wounded rabid dog (take the Israeli behaviour after October 7th and make it 100 times even worse) to such an extend that they invaded 2 Muslim nations (Afghanistan) and Iraq (based on false claims which they know of) just because of their bloodlust. Doing what was being done during the 1980's (when the US was on "our" side) while located quite far away from Afghanistan (no direct borders, not even close) against a rabid/angry USA would be some challenge.

Did not stop 1000's of Saudi Arabian volunteers from fighting and killing 100's of US soldiers in Iraq though or private donors from supporting the Iraqi resistance. But the US establishment used enormous pressure on KSA to stop such politics and to be frank, some of those who went there/groups where not much different from the US and some came to bite KSA during teh AQ uprising but that was relatively quickly crushed and since that time very few issues in this regard. Unfortunately Pakistan paid a higher price due to bordering a war torn Afghanistan for the past 40 years but every action has a consequence, some unintended. I don't think that supporting a legitimate against the Soviets in the 1980's and afterwards the creation of AQ was part of the plan or even intended.

BTW Al-Julani was 1 of 10.000's of Arab volunteers who went to Iraq to fight the Americans (the US lost 2-3 times as many troops in Iraq compared to Afghanistan btw). So much for him being a "puppet", lol.

 

[Meengla]

Yeah more or less. He says the right thing (or wrong), but have no doubt they’re all for a stronger America. He doesn’t want the foreign mess interfering with his domestic agenda. I voted independents for the reasons you listed above, I couldn’t bring myself for voting for Trump this time around vs when I did in 2016 and 2020. You and I differ on our views about supporting him. I didn’t want my hands dirty for what was to come with this admin so it was safer by voting Ind. I hate the liberal progressives with a passion.

You and I differ on American domestic politics. Firstly, I am a self-proclaimed 'Humanist' and in such frame of reference the ethnicity/religion/race and even the 'social norms' are of less importance, within the limits of personal biases which we all human beings have to work under. As for some of the liberal extremism, I am not onboard with transgenders into female bathrooms or the Democrats stuffing their vote banks with illegal immigrants but the same progressives which you and seemingly most of this forum hates are the one who'd fight for YOUR rights--they are the 'lesser evil'!!
As for the 'liberal progressives', within the context of this particular thread, those liberal progressives are the one who stood for the Palestinians in the last 15+ months whether in the US Congress via the Democratic Party or on the streets via the African American churches, via the elite American universities where even an African American President had to resign due to her tolerance of anti Israel protests, via the progressive young students who included Jewish Americans... Those are incontrovertible facts between those elements of the American society vs those of the MAGA crowd when it came to the topic of this thread.

 

[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

I see some of your points and I am historically not into the Arab bashing here as generalizing hundreds of millions of people, most of whom don't have the oil wealth and would face the music of the current Western dominated economic order. Even those with oil wealth are deeply vested in the West and know that, until there is alternate financial order, they risk losing trillions of their investment within days if they go stray. And what to speak of the tens of millions of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and other who work in GCC countries and provide enormous revenues to their countries of origin the GCC economies shut down due to wars and/or sanctions?
We all need to be aware of the ignorance of the expats with their grandiose plans of a world order. They should live in their countries of origin like common folks to see the reality of life there. I was raised in solid upper middle class family in Karachi but abject poverty was still all around me; there were literally straw huts housing within few minutes walk from my house. Such perspective is important to have in our lives in general.
PS. You remind me of a certain Jhungary (Chinese, American, Hungarian, Mongolian, German... could never figure out his ethnicity. LOL!) who wrote long posts to the point of making several PhD dissertations in the Russia-Ukraine war thread in the old PDF! LOL!

Aah... the sense of belonging... or longing for greener pastures. The established order... the dependencies, the cheesy takes...

Complicit or compromised!

Money moves up... wealth moves UP! It deprives the bottom who must toil to feed and shoulder the lifestyle of the wealthy.
So how does one build...
You have two examples
A Chinese... reasoned from top hardwork and machine-like labor at the bottom or an Arab... leveraging west for power and being a conduit for not only wealth from the bottom but forcing all around the globe to transfer their wealth.

Today China stands on its two feet and a peer to the western order, helping build an alternate for their own cause and the Arabs... still financing stalled western projects... resuscitating a dying dispensation.

When one talks to creamover and lumps all in personally reconciled narrative you do a disservice to everyone struggling with their own exposure and ramifications.

Built over centuries... It isn't easy and that is why it is important that it remains an open wound without a scab!

Gaza therefore is resistance to that order... one that pains the oppressors on either sides equally. It is the litmus!

 

[Falcon29]

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[Oldenwisdom...قول بزرگ]

As long as you are incapable of having a civilized discussion without resorting to name-calling, your usual moronic anti-Arab rhetoric, I will simply continue to ignore your posts as they are not worth replying to nor are you (as usual) even reading what I am writing. No offence. If you want a sane discussion try another approach.

As for the topics at hand they were already discussed and many Pakistani users agreed with my takes which frankly are hard to argue against based on facts on the ground.

Instead it is you who must change approach to be taken seriously. My tone and wording will match yours...
There is a reason why your tangents run in all direction and never indepth... because holding fort and surface knowledge runs circles around you first before anyone else...
Anyone else with limited or no knowledge or information will just choose to walk away.
Classic shapiro approach!

 

[OakTree23]

@OakTree23
As for post 9/11, remember that back then the US was even stronger and there was no China or Russia to counter the global balance. They were a wounded rabid dog (take the Israeli behaviour after October 7th and make it 100 times even worse) to such an extend that they invaded 2 Muslim nations (Afghanistan) and Iraq (based on false claims which they know of) just because of their bloodlust. Doing what was being done during the 1980's (when the US was on "our" side) while located quite far away from Afghanistan (no direct borders, not even close) against a rabid/angry USA would be some challenge.

Did not stop 1000's of Saudi Arabian volunteers from fighting and killing 100's of US soldiers in Iraq though or private donors from supporting the Iraqi resistance. But the US establishment used enormous pressure on KSA to stop such politics and to be frank, some of those who went there/groups where not much different from the US and some came to bite KSA during teh AQ uprising but that was relatively quickly crushed and since that time very few issues in this regard. Unfortunately Pakistan paid a higher price due to bordering a war torn Afghanistan for the past 40 years but every action has a consequence, some unintended. I don't think that supporting a legitimate against the Soviets in the 1980's and afterwards the creation of AQ was part of the plan or even intended.

BTW Al-Julani was 1 of 10.000's of Arab volunteers who went to Iraq to fight the Americans (the US lost 2-3 times as many troops in Iraq compared to Afghanistan btw). So much for him being a "puppet", lol.

I didn’t call him a puppet. I think he’s walking a delicate line to stabilize his government and gain acceptance. I’m a Shia who’s glad that Sunnis have taken back what was theirs. Just don’t a single brick in our religious sites and things will be fine. Keep the rabid dogs in check.
And yes, I’m aware of the Arab fighters in Iraq. Iraq was way more intense than anyone here can imagine.

 

[Falcon29]

Negotiations over Phase 2 were supposed to begin two weeks ago. There are 3 phases to the ceasefire.

Netanyahu's extremist government is stalling, refusing to commit to a Phase 2 and 3, and instead of trying to extend Phase 1 which largely benefits Israel and facilitates release of all Israeli prisoners for a free price. So that once Israel gets them all, it will resume it's blind military operations in Gaza which aim to kill more and destroy more. Without a post-war plan.

That can be avoided if world puts up a stand to reject ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and demand a end to the offensive assault on Gaza.

 

[Meengla]

Aah... the sense of belonging... or longing for greener pastures. The established order... the dependencies, the cheesy takes...
Complicit or compromised!
Money moves up... wealth moves UP! It deprives the bottom who must toil to feed and shoulder the lifestyle of the wealthy.
So how does one build...

There you go again with your vague Biblical prose! Maybe you co-authored the Old Testament! LOL!

 

[The SC]

Oh boy!
Again Arabia doing A-rab stuff!

This is not a thread about Pakistan. Pakistan for all it's faults fought superpowers next door in Afghanistan. Has a several times larger enemy to the east. Volunteered in previous Arab-Israel conflicts and protected the Monarchies.

Last! Pakistan is probably the Biggest hope for Palestine along with Turkiye.
Arabs have a master who they seek to please...
Pakistan is a captive of circumstance and system of shackles... breaking them free is more a mental exercise than physical.

Now start reporting and stick to the topic instead of harping on Arab greatness of yore!

What master are you talking about!?

The whole world seeing the Arabs confronting the US diplomatically ..only you can't see it?

 

[Meengla]

What master are you talking about!?
The whole world seeing the Arabs confronting the US diplomatically ..only you can't see it?

As I keep saying, beware of the expats sitting in rich GCC and Western countries who can't see beyond their nose and can't see that what a further destabilization of the Middle East would do to their own VERY poor countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh.

But I also think that the repeated exchanges between Iran and GCC countries over the last 15+ months have helped form a more unified platform which forms a nucleus for a budding regional unity: Iran is going to bring down the house if it is attacked by Israel/America combine. A recent article in the Washington Post said Israel is planning to attack Iran within next six months and that article doesn't surprise me as I keep saying that Netanyahu will try to gain as much advantage as possible between now and the US Midterm elections in 2026. But GCC Arab countries are going to have to prevent that--gone are the days when the GCC Arab countries/Israel tried to stop the JCPOA under the Obama administration.

 

[_Arabia_]

I didn’t call him a puppet. I think he’s walking a delicate line to stabilize his government and gain acceptance. I’m a Shia who’s glad that Sunnis have taken back what was theirs. Just don’t a single brick in our religious sites and things will be fine. Keep the rabid dogs in check.
And yes, I’m aware of the Arab fighters in Iraq. Iraq was way more intense than anyone here can imagine.

I was referring to the resident supporters of the Al-Assad regime.

I disagree with your rhetoric of "theirs". While Syrian Sunni Arabs form the vast majority of Syria the Syrian Shia Arabs and even the Alawites (who are not Muslims) are part of the Syrian fabric and Syria is also their country. Goes for every community in every Arab country. Same way that I won't say that KSA belongs to Hanbalis and not Shafi'is, Malikis, Hanafis, Sufis, Salafis, Shias, Zaydis, Ismailis, Atheists, specific local Arabian clans and tribes and the many ethnic Saudi Arabian minorities. However I do agree that majority rule, especially this overwhelming, is a natural thing (historically too in the case of Syria) especially if the competition is a failed and totally incompetent Al-Assad cult regime belonging to a real cult (Alawites) of people.

This scholar (A Pakistani American like you I believe), I have only seen this video from him as it was a good one (in English so I used it to show non-Arab Muslims that Alawites should not be grouped with Shias or Muslims for that matter)

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As for religious Shia sites, albeit I disagree personally with tomb/grave worship/this being given so much importance (I consider it an innovation that was not practiced by Prophet Muhammad (saws) and his companions, nor is is it stated in the Quran), I don't think anything will be destroyed nor should it. Minority religious sites must be respected let alone Muslim ones. This also goes for non-Muslim places of worship in case of Christians and Jews. Personally I am against any destruction of any graves/tombs just due to the historical importance they have.

This is live: Arab governments are very clear in their wording:

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Instead it is you who must change approach to be taken seriously. My tone and wording will match yours...
There is a reason why your tangents run in all direction and never indepth... because holding fort and surface knowledge runs circles around you first before anyone else...
Anyone else with limited or no knowledge or information will just choose to walk away.
Classic shapiro approach!

You can call me a lot of names or whatever (I really don't care) but your claim of me not having knowledge about the Arab world is a really absurd claim. You probably won't find a user on this entire forum that has a greater knowledge of the overall history of the Arab world both the Islamic and non-Islamic era. It is an interest of mine.

Which is why I have challenged you or anybody else here to argue agianst anything that I wrote in terms of history. Yet to see it occur. Anyway this is irrelevant, you continue doing what you have done all the time which is trolling and not reading what is being written.