Hangor Class Submarine | Updates & Discussion

[Ak01]

So, even more reason to go for SSNs and SSBNs, 3 each, to build up a qualitative capability that will divide adversary assets.

If the Indians know the coasts and EEZ are defended by Hangors and the oceans are patrolled by SSNs, their Carriers much less their capital ships are not safe. A classic pincher.

At the same time a Pakistani SSBN, out patrolling for months, for example, under SLOCS between Sri Lanka and the Red Sea could fire upon major Indian naval bases from an unexpected direction.

China has expanded the nuclear submarine construction facility at Huludao, and is about to transition away from the Type 093B to the Type 095. In a few years, the Type 093B tech will be outdated for them, but will still be as good anything the Indians could build, if not better. Building a modest 4000 ton design, if Pakistan can’t get the 6000 ton 093B, which would be better with its 18 VLS, will probably not cost more than a billion dollars, considering china’s economies of scale. Building most of them in Pakistan, could be cover enough to say it’s indigenous tech, if it’s the 4000 ton design.

unrealistic.

Having an SSN is one thing, using it effectively is another. The Indians leased Akula's and older SSNs to gain experience. IMO we should have got the Han's as long as they were safe, operated them as a training exercise and atleast built up some experience until we were able to get a proper system.

A Pakistani SSN is 4-5 decades out IMO unless something big happens. Until then, SWATs and a Agosta replacement from the west would be a very serious threat

 

[FuturePAF]

unrealistic.

Having an SSN is one thing, using it effectively is another. The Indians leased Akula's and older SSNs to gain experience. IMO we should have got the Han's as long as they were safe, operated them as a training exercise and atleast built up some experience until we were able to get a proper system.

A Pakistani SSN is 4-5 decades out IMO unless something big happens. Until then, SWATs and a Agosta replacement from the west would be a very serious threat

Then in that case, once China is comfortable approving the deal, lease one type 093B for 10 years. If not the Type 093B, then at least the Type 093A. As long as the sound is quiet enough for it to make sense.

With the money not spent building SSNs and SSBNs, build two underground submarine pens/bases, Ormara and Hub, to launch the sub underwater, and create a shell game to keep Indian asw forces guessing.

 

[Quwa]

The Hangors cost $650 million each (probably more if you consider inflation), and with the added VLS section probably at least another 100 million more. AIP-SSK travel at a few knots and could easily be spotted with modern ASW equipment, especially if they venture far from our Submarine bastion of the coastal areas. But if they stay near the coast they will be more predictable and less likely to operate as a robust second strike capability.

If I go by your numbers and each SSBN costs $1.33 Billion, but can stay at sea, submerged for months and moving at a solid 20+ knots cruising or 10 knots in silent patrol, all over the Indian Ocean, it seems more survivable as well as more capable.

If we are to have modern capabilities we need to be able to spend adequate amounts. This is why everything comes back to the economy (and by extension politics).

IMO...I don't think each Hangor SSP cost that much. I'm aware of the Financial Times article that quoted a $4-5 billion USD figure, but I believe that amount also included the four Type 054A/P and PNS Rizwan. Plus, the Royal Thai Navy said it had agreed to pay ~$1 billion USD for 3 S26Ts, so around $330 million USD per boat.

So, each Hangor SSP likely came for around $350 million USD at most (IMO), so around $2.8 billion USD in total. The four Type 054A/P likely cleared for around $1.2 billion USD, and several hundred million probably went into PNS Rizwan.

 

[FuturePAF]

IMO...I don't think each Hangor SSP cost that much. I'm aware of the Financial Times article that quoted a $4-5 billion USD figure, but I believe that amount also included the four Type 054A/P and PNS Rizwan. Plus, the Royal Thai Navy said it had agreed to pay ~$1 billion USD for 3 S26Ts, so around $330 million USD per boat.

So, each Hangor SSP likely came for around $350 million USD at most (IMO), so around $2.8 billion USD in total. The four Type 054A/P likely cleared for around $1.2 billion USD, and several hundred million probably went into PNS Rizwan.

Thanks for the correction. If the PN wants to go for a boomer, what do you think would be a realistic option? SSBN, SSK with VLS section, or SSK-N with VLS section?

 

[Kermit]

PN has limited budget. Operating costs of SSN and SSBN will also have to be taken into account. We will have to make do with the Hangors. PNSC will keep on working for a reliable 2nd Strike capability.

 

[FuturePAF]

PN has limited budget. Operating costs of SSN and SSBN will also have to be taken into account. We will have to make do with the Hangors. PNSC will keep on working for a reliable 2nd Strike capability.

A SSK-N could provide a decent Second strike platform for some amount in between the cost of an SSK and a Full SSBN.

China is working on it now, as a follow on to their AIP-SSKs, so perhaps in a few years we will see how effective, quiet, and expensive each of these subs will cost, especially if China starts to build them in bulk.

 

[Quwa]

Thanks for the correction. If the PN wants to go for a boomer, what do you think would be a realistic option? SSBN, SSK with VLS section, or SSK-N with VLS section?

There was a PTV interview with several retired PN admirals a year or so ago. IIRC those admirals brought up the idea of a 'hybrid nuclear' option which would involve arming a conventional platform with nuclear-tipped munitions.

Now, the hybrid solution is already a thing with the Hangor SSP and even Agosta 90Bs via the Babur-3 SLCM. However, I don't think the PN believes that a 350-500 km-range SLCM is enough of a deterrence threat; they'll want to deploy longer-ranged missiles and, as a result, will need a bigger submarine with a specific configuration, e.g., VLS.

So, I think the PN is looking at the idea of acquiring a larger SSP (3,000+ tons) with enough space for a VLS for both LACM and SLBMs. The latter could be based on the SMASH/Fatah-series, especially Fatah IV, and lead to a 1,000 km to 1,500 km SLBM.

Let's see if the PN can join Turkiye's MILDEN... ASFAT revealed a VLS-equipped variant:

SAHA EXPO 2024: ASFAT Shows MİLDEN Submarine With VLS | TURDEF

ASFAT has shown the MİLDEN submarine with VLS for cruise missiles during the SAHA EXPO 2024 exhibition as the secondary weapon.

turdef.com

 

[FuturePAF]

There was a PTV interview with several retired PN admirals a year or so ago. IIRC those admirals brought up the idea of a 'hybrid nuclear' option which would involve arming a conventional platform with nuclear-tipped munitions.

Now, the hybrid solution is already a thing with the Hangor SSP and even Agosta 90Bs via the Babur-3 SLCM. However, I don't think the PN believes that a 350-500 km-range SLCM is enough of a deterrence threat; they'll want to deploy longer-ranged missiles and, as a result, will need a bigger submarine with a specific configuration, e.g., VLS.

So, I think the PN is looking at the idea of acquiring a larger SSP (3,000+ tons) with enough space for a VLS for both LACM and SLBMs. The latter could be based on the SMASH/Fatah-series, especially Fatah IV, and lead to a 1,000 km to 1,500 km SLBM.

Let's see if the PN can join Turkiye's MILDEN... ASFAT revealed a VLS-equipped variant:

SAHA EXPO 2024: ASFAT Shows MİLDEN Submarine With VLS | TURDEF

ASFAT has shown the MİLDEN submarine with VLS for cruise missiles during the SAHA EXPO 2024 exhibition as the secondary weapon.

turdef.com

I was referring to a sub powered by a 10 mw modular reactor, as shown in the Binkov video and Eurasian naval video.

Said to be very quiet, quieter than even many modern SSNs, and if the sub is around 3000-4000 tons could good enough for our needs.

The chart at the top right of the fourth page, shows a 3000 ton sub could sustain 20 knots with only 4.5 mw reactor.

The evinci reactor from Westinghouse 5 MWe (15 MWth) costs around $60 million and lasts 7 years, requiring a swap out.

eVinci™ Microreactor | Westinghouse Nuclear

Westinghouse is currently developing the eVinci™ Microreactor, a next-generation, very small modular reactor for decentralized remote applications

westinghousenuclear.com

These "microreactors" could be the future of nuclear power

Microreactors that can be built and deployed much faster than traditional nuclear power plants could be the future of nuclear energy

www.freethink.com

I fear if we go for half measures, such as the Milden submarine with VLS for cruise missile and short ranged SLBMs, we will build up a large but inadequate fleet that will squander resources and give us the illusion of a capability we need.

https://jmstt.ntou.edu.tw/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1152&context=journal

 

[Quwa]

I was referring to a sub powered by a 10 mw modular reactor, as shown in the Binkov video and Eurasian naval video.

Said to be very quiet, quieter than even many modern SSNs, and if the sub is around 3000-4000 tons could good enough for our needs.

The chart at the top right of the fourth page, shows a 3000 ton sub could sustain 20 knots with only 4.5 mw reactor.

The evinci reactor from Westinghouse 5 MWe (15 MWth) costs around $60 million and lasts 7 years, requiring a swap out.

eVinci™ Microreactor | Westinghouse Nuclear

Westinghouse is currently developing the eVinci™ Microreactor, a next-generation, very small modular reactor for decentralized remote applications

westinghousenuclear.com

These "microreactors" could be the future of nuclear power

Microreactors that can be built and deployed much faster than traditional nuclear power plants could be the future of nuclear energy

www.freethink.com

I fear if we go for half measures, such as the Milden submarine with VLS for cruise missile and short ranged SLBMs, we will build up a large but inadequate fleet that will squander resources and give us the illusion of a capability we need.

https://jmstt.ntou.edu.tw/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1152&context=journal

IMO... The benefit of an SSN is its range and speed. I'm not sure if the PN currently puts a lot of stock in those 2 qualities as its operating environment is actually flush with lots of trade routes, fisheries, and, generally, busy maritime activity.

In other words, the PN has the benefit of operating in an acoustically noisy area, which would mask its submarines and, generally, make speed less of a need.

Maybe the PN's idea is to double-down on stealth...

So, the deterrence submarine can be conventionally powered, but (ideally) use a fuel-cell AIP and other measures (pump jets?) to lower acoustics to relatively very quiet levels. Instead of moving quick and loud, it would move slow and very quietly.

This isn't to say the PN doesn't value an SSN's speed and range; rather, the benefits don't justify eating the costs (of acquisition, maintenance, safety, technology growth, etc) so quickly. The PN would rather spread those costs out 2-3 decades and, until then, rely on conventionally-powered submarines.

IMO...the PN's order of priorities are:

• <5 years: Deploy an SLCM with 1,000+ km reach
• <15 years: Deploy a large SSP with VLS and 1,000+ km SLBM
• <20 years: Deploy a SSBN with a 2,000+ km SLBM

 

[PakAl]

Then in that case, once China is comfortable approving the deal, lease one type 093B for 10 years. If not the Type 093B, then at least the Type 093A. As long as the sound is quiet enough for it to make sense.

With the money not spent building SSNs and SSBNs, build two underground submarine pens/bases, Ormara and Hub, to launch the sub underwater, and create a shell game to keep Indian asw forces guessing.

What about the new type 41 mini nuclear submarine at 4000T. It's similar to the new French suffren nuclear submarine, it launches nuclear cruise missiles. Would this be cost effective for Pakistan?. Some analysis are also claiming China is planning to add mini nuclear reactor to the type 39 submarine, turning them from conventional to nuclear, if this is possible Pakistan can buy 4 conventional Hangor and 4 nuclear Hangor submarines, increase the range of babur to 1500km.

 

[FuturePAF]

What about the new type 41 mini nuclear submarine at 4000T. It's similar to the new French suffren nuclear submarine, it launches nuclear cruise missiles. Would this be cost effective for Pakistan?. Some analysis are also claiming China is planning to add mini nuclear reactor to the type 39 submarine, turning them from conventional to nuclear, if this is possible Pakistan can buy 4 conventional Hangor and 4 nuclear Hangor submarines, increase the range of babur to 1500km.

The Type 41 is ideal, at present, but it would need at least 8 VLS to house the 1500 km YJ-21, so you can hold Mumbai and New Delhi at risk from just off the coast at Karachi.

China is working on the Type 41, so let’s hope they perfect and start building them soon. Adding a X tail rudder and pump jet. It won’t be the fastest, but still travel at a decent 5-10 knots sustainably, and it should be the quietest thing in the water, due to limited moving parts. Build 3 attack boats and 3 boomers and you have a decent enough offensive attack sub and a decent enough second strike force, that can be at sea all the time. Cost would probably be around $500-666 million per sub though, or $3-4 billion for the fleet of six boats. The subs would need to also have their reactor swapped out every 7 years with current technology, at a cost of around $60 million each time, so each sub would have to be build with a large section with a hatch, allowing for a swap out, so the sub won’t have to be split open each time for the swap, hence something the Chinese are probably working out at the moment.

Although with the experience building the hangers in Karachi, the price could probably be brought down and give the shipyard something new to build.

 

[Ak01]

Realistically, its only a matter of time before the Turks chase after naval reactors. They're building carriers and ssk's, the next logical step up is just that, a nuke boat or a carrier.

The most realistic way forward IMO for the PN would be to collaborate with Turkey and a third country like Brazil or more likely Argentina.

Since the 1950's, Argentina has wanted a nuclear sub. They then tried to make this happen by adapting a TR1700 hull to fit a CAREM SMR into them. The issue was that CAREM was really not designed to be on a moving platform among many other issues, but the key aspect of all of this is they have the capabilities for the design of such a reactor, alongside the experience and a WHOLE lot of research on nuclear submarine propulsion.

The issue for Argentina is they have no money. They're poor, but so are we, just less so lol, a third partner, perhaps a fourth is needed. Turkey is a good candidate and would gain alot from this too, plus they have submarine design experience, but i dont think Turkey could really bankroll this project. Potentially one of the Gulf states, Qatar or someone could be a good fourth partner. They have the desire to buy up some subs, i do think this is a stretch for them, however, it could be an eventual goal, or someone like the Saudi's who do have goals to project power around the region.

This would give us the basis for the development of a reactor. With Pakistani and Argentinian (+Russian? Via Turkey) Nuclear Engineers and Saudi funding, we could probably get something up and running. It probably wouldn't be great, it would probably be functional however, something to iterate on. Put it into a test boat, operated jointly by the nations as a demonstrator, put it to sea, use the data gathered to simultaneously work on a new variant to then iron out the kinks and further develop this into something more viable. The main issue really is the cost, someone has to bankroll this. The PN/NRDI also could bring some serious help to the project via their expertise in MESMA, which for all intents and purposes is effectively a de nuclearised, nuclear propulsion system. We have pieces of the puzzle, the rest of it is sitting there in a country, desperate for money and a place in the global stage (argentina)- its in our hands to take advantage of this via our partners...

 

[Quwa]

Realistically, its only a matter of time before the Turks chase after naval reactors. They're building carriers and ssk's, the next logical step up is just that, a nuke boat or a carrier.

The most realistic way forward IMO for the PN would be to collaborate with Turkey and a third country like Brazil or more likely Argentina.

Since the 1950's, Argentina has wanted a nuclear sub. They then tried to make this happen by adapting a TR1700 hull to fit a CAREM SMR into them. The issue was that CAREM was really not designed to be on a moving platform among many other issues, but the key aspect of all of this is they have the capabilities for the design of such a reactor, alongside the experience and a WHOLE lot of research on nuclear submarine propulsion.

The issue for Argentina is they have no money. They're poor, but so are we, just less so lol, a third partner, perhaps a fourth is needed. Turkey is a good candidate and would gain alot from this too, plus they have submarine design experience, but i dont think Turkey could really bankroll this project. Potentially one of the Gulf states, Qatar or someone could be a good fourth partner. They have the desire to buy up some subs, i do think this is a stretch for them, however, it could be an eventual goal, or someone like the Saudi's who do have goals to project power around the region.

This would give us the basis for the development of a reactor. With Pakistani and Argentinian (+Russian? Via Turkey) Nuclear Engineers and Saudi funding, we could probably get something up and running. It probably wouldn't be great, it would probably be functional however, something to iterate on. Put it into a test boat, operated jointly by the nations as a demonstrator, put it to sea, use the data gathered to simultaneously work on a new variant to then iron out the kinks and further develop this into something more viable. The main issue really is the cost, someone has to bankroll this. The PN/NRDI also could bring some serious help to the project via their expertise in MESMA, which for all intents and purposes is effectively a de nuclearised, nuclear propulsion system. We have pieces of the puzzle, the rest of it is sitting there in a country, desperate for money and a place in the global stage (argentina)- its in our hands to take advantage of this via our partners...

IMO... PAEC, PINSTECH, etc., could bring the reactor expertise, but they just need a lot of funding to develop a solution. This could've been done a long time ago, but the general cloud of sanctions against us likely stops others from partnering -- much less bankrolling -- our nuclear R&D. There are so many countries who can gain from our nuclear R&D capacity (which is legit if you read Eating Grass), but the US-led sanctions regime basically discourages the likes of Turkiye, the Gulf, and so on from leveraging it. Likewise, we can't partner with potential peers in South Africa and Brazil to do bottom-up R&D work.

OTOH...if the US rolls back the "rules-based order" and encourages a general environment of 'dog eat dog', then we might see a few countries buck these sanctions threats and partner with us. Likewise, America's more brazen push might push our own establishment to become more competent, ambitious, etc; our leaders might do surprising things in 10-15 years (e.g., integrate the Afghan business community, build Central Asian energy corridors for non-Gulf and non-Russian oil and gas, invest in technology R&D and elevate economic output, etc) because their survival depends on it.

 

[S.Y.A]

PAEC, PINSTECH, etc., could bring the reactor expertise, but they just need a lot of funding to develop a solution.

the govt can stop wasting the development funds on glass trains, toilets, hostels and office buildings and instead use them to bankroll projects like these.

 

[Falcon26]

IMO... PAEC, PINSTECH, etc., could bring the reactor expertise, but they just need a lot of funding to develop a solution. This could've been done a long time ago, but the general cloud of sanctions against us likely stops others from partnering -- much less bankrolling -- our nuclear R&D. There are so many countries who can gain from our nuclear R&D capacity (which is legit if you read Eating Grass), but the US-led sanctions regime basically discourages the likes of Turkiye, the Gulf, and so on from leveraging it. Likewise, we can't partner with potential peers in South Africa and Brazil to do bottom-up R&D work.

OTOH...if the US rolls back the "rules-based order" and encourages a general environment of 'dog eat dog', then we might see a few countries buck these sanctions threats and partner with us. Likewise, America's more brazen push might push our own establishment to become more competent, ambitious, etc; our leaders might do surprising things in 10-15 years (e.g., integrate the Afghan business community, build Central Asian energy corridors for non-Gulf and non-Russian oil and gas, invest in technology R&D and elevate economic output, etc) because their survival depends on it.

I think Pakistan’s nuclear research capacity is highly underrated. In fact, I would even rate Mansoor Ahmed’s ‘Pakistan’s pathway to the nuclear bomb’ as more important work than Eating Grass. Mansoor Ahmed is a young and brilliant nuclear strategist and his writing are always incisive as they are pertinent. I have followed him since his Pakdef days and he has never disappointed.