Turkish Naval Programs

[hyperman]

Always something to be learnt. This is why the JF-17 program was ITERATIVE and had further DEVELOPMENT cycles post induction... in the same way KAAN is a program that DEVELOPS and ITERATES on a baseline design, GATHERING DATA, EXPERTISE AND EXPERIENCE from its deployment, to then produce a better product.

I wonder why Turkey developed ATMACA, which for all intents and purposes is, on paper, as capable as a later Harpoon/Exocet, why did you not go directly for something more akin to FOSW/SPEAR 5? Why develop Gokdogan? Its nothing remarkable...? Why did you not go out and build a super duper wonder missile instead? Most of the world is moving to VLRAAM's via Meteor, PL15, new US projects and even Meteor is getting an MLU, why waste money on a turkified, less capable 120c5?

Yeah Turkey built an Atmaca and equivalent to the Harpoon, It didn't build something like the Regulus.

The Gokdogan is an AIM-120C equivalent not something from the Vietnam War Era like the K-13.

edit:

the Iterative analogy doesn't work, b/c youn aren't iterating on a Chinese design and you don't operate a nuclear sub.

Turkey had the Harpoon and the AIM-120C in its pocession and use, so it was able to have a deep understanding of the weapon.

Besides none of these are as complicated as a Nuclear Submarine. So where is this iteration talking point coming from?

Everything Turkey has built, it had some experience with a similar platform via either sales or via codevelopment, and nothing Turkey has developed so far is as complicated as a nuclear submarine. You are using talking points that don't fit.

 

[Quwa]

I don't think Pakistan can have this technology even if it tries for many years.

This is basically what people said about the TFX when Turkiye announced plans to develop their own fighter back in 2016. Heck, there are people who posted on this very thread who didn't think TFX would ever fly.,

Just as Turkish enthusiasts are aware of their actual aerospace capabilities, we Pakistanis are aware of our nuclear capacity.

If you can, read the book "Eating Grass." It'll give you a detailed account of the history of Pakistan's nuclear program, technical capacity, R&D, industrial capacity, and so on. If you read it cover-to-cover, you'll see what we're saying.

 

[Ak01]

I stand by all the elements, I merely pointed out that the initial discussion was over a comment that specific user made about it being easy.

And yes all of the points I raised have to do with viability.

GDP/Money matters, You don't have $5 Billion for a "research project".

I'm not using "indian talking points" I'm pointing out the reality. If anything this whole thing with that guy's initial comment is the equivalent of the Supa Powa 2020 stuff from the Indians.

I didn't make poor arguments, i gave china as an example, and the difficulties china faced, and the reason I brought up China is b/c China had more experience than you, and more money than you, and still struggled until 2006. I pointed out Pakistan has not made any reactors for Power generation.

The entire response so far thought can be boiled down to "You just don't know our skills", "See Pakistan Hater Hoodboi even stands by our nuclear program". Whats that have to do with Nuclear Marine propulsion which itself is hard enough, but trying to build propulsion for a submarine is the apex of that puzzle.

Then you really have not been reading whats been written.

GDP/Money matters. Great, its not like EVERY SINGLE ONE OF OUR POSTS has mentioned the key issues being sanction and money. That an external financier is needed, but the risk appetite for sanctions is not there. Have you actually read whats written, at all...? Did you read the part where we have all said, that with a consortium, including funding sources, we could output a workable reactor, fit for purpose, that would need further iteration, or did you miss all of that.

You did make poor arguments, China took 15 years to build the Han. A serviceable, nuclear powered boat, fit for purpose, the purpose being, a learning exercise. They laid the groundwork for a TRUE operational sub. This seems to be difficult for you to understand, i do not knnow why.

The entire point is you do not know about the capabilities and research and development that goes on at PAEC. We have spoonfed you what you know, then you have taken that and attempted to form a baseless argument off of that. If you actually have valid points, do bring them, do tell us about what is lacking, what areas of weakness there are, what groundwork needs to be laid etc, instead, all you have brought to the table is Muh India, Muh China, Muh what is development.

OTOH, i explained to you, that there are 4/5 heavy water, indigenous reactors at Khushab, if Pakistan was to take a similar approach to India, they would likely aim for commonality between the HWR's at Khushab, infact, forget Khushab, they can literally further develop MESMA, for use outside of the Island, with the island being developed ground up by PAEC as a first generation, research reactor, for gaining experience, data and insights to further improve a future operational design.

You're really either missing the point or baiting if you dont understand what was meant by the Hoodbhoy comment. Obviously that was endorsing the serious amount of research, development and capability that is in the hands of PAEC, PAEC is not a joke, rather, a world class organisation, held back at the hands of sanctions...

 

[hyperman]

This is basically what people said about the TFX when Turkiye announced plans to develop their own fighter back in 2016. Heck, there are people who posted on this very thread who didn't think TFX would ever fly.,

Just as Turkish enthusiasts are aware of their actual aerospace capabilities, we Pakistanis are aware of our nuclear capacity.

Yes but you see Turkey had experience with the F-16 which is build locally. It was also building the F-35 Body IN Turkey.

And none of those things are as complicated as a nuclear submarine. And I'm not aware of China even selling a nuclear submarine or leasing one to Pakistan(it offered in the past, but Pakistan rejected it(type 91), ironically b/c they also didn't see it as viable/competitive).

 

[hyperman]

A serviceable, nuclear powered boat, fit for purpose

it was neither serviceable nor fit for purpose, go look at how many times China bothered to deploy it, rather than it sitting close to shore as a training vessel.

 

[Michael]

Like the Type 91 China built but could not operationally deploy in any significant way b/c of its noise level. The Type 91 was noisier than some submarines built in the 1950s. Like I said, it wasn't until 2006 that China built a submarine that was decent enough to be competitive, and even then it was noisier than some soviet subs in the late 80s.

In China's strategic planning for military equipment development, nuclear submarines have not been a high priority for a long time.
China has maintained adequate nuclear deterrence and countermeasure capabilities through the development of the DF series of intercontinental missiles of the Rocket Force and the “Underground Great Wall” project. This is a decision we have made in the past based on our own circumstances.
China's nuclear submarine program has been developing at an ordinary pace in the past.
It was not until China's economy developed and we had sufficient capabilities that the development of the nuclear submarine program began to accelerate.

The idea of autonomy in the development of China's military industry is to start thinking about raw materials. This is completely different from other countries.
For example. Other countries build nuclear submarines, they can import submarine-specific steel, they can import all kinds of core components ...... China has great difficulty in importing these things.
We have to research the formula for these specialized steels ourselves. Own steel mills to smelt these steels. And also build a lot of our own specialized machines to process these steels. ------ Developed countries have banned the sale of these heavy precision machines to China.

Interesting knowledge:
China's first nuclear submarine. The chief designer, Huang Xuhua, used a toy model of a nuclear submarine brought back from the United States to verify that the design was on the right track.

 

[hyperman]

Then you really have not been reading whats been written.

GDP/Money matters. Great, its not like EVERY SINGLE ONE OF OUR POSTS has mentioned the key issues being sanction and money. That an external financier is needed, but the risk appetite for sanctions is not there. Have you actually read whats written, at all...? Did you read the part where we have all said, that with a consortium, including funding sources, we could output a workable reactor, fit for purpose, that would need further iteration, or did you miss all of that.

You did make poor arguments, China took 15 years to build the Han. A serviceable, nuclear powered boat, fit for purpose, the purpose being, a learning exercise. They laid the groundwork for a TRUE operational sub. This seems to be difficult for you to understand, i do not knnow why.

The entire point is you do not know about the capabilities and research and development that goes on at PAEC. We have spoonfed you what you know, then you have taken that and attempted to form a baseless argument off of that. If you actually have valid points, do bring them, do tell us about what is lacking, what areas of weakness there are, what groundwork needs to be laid etc, instead, all you have brought to the table is Muh India, Muh China, Muh what is development.

OTOH, i explained to you, that there are 4/5 heavy water, indigenous reactors at Khushab, if Pakistan was to take a similar approach to India, they would likely aim for commonality between the HWR's at Khushab, infact, forget Khushab, they can literally further develop MESMA, for use outside of the Island, with the island being developed ground up by PAEC as a first generation, research reactor, for gaining experience, data and insights to further improve a future operational design.

You're really either missing the point or baiting if you dont understand what was meant by the Hoodbhoy comment. Obviously that was endorsing the serious amount of research, development and capability that is in the hands of PAEC, PAEC is not a joke, rather, a world class organisation, held back at the hands of sanctions...

Whats your ETA on Pakistan's one Nuclear Submarine design?

Its been "working" on this for a while now, according to some of the users here.

So give us an ETA, then i will come back and check if the indigenous submarine without Chinese Help exists.

No point in arguing further when the only response I seem to get is "you just don't know our skillz bro".

 

[Ak01]

Yes but you see Turkey had experience with the F-16 which is build locally. It was also building the F-35 Body IN Turkey.

And none of those things are as complicated as a nuclear submarine. And I'm not aware of China even selling a nuclear submarine or leasing one to Pakistan(it offered in the past, but Pakistan rejected it(type 91), ironically b/c they also didn't see it as viable/competitive).

Yeah Turkey built an Atmaca and equivalent to the Harpoon, It didn't build something like the Regulus.

The Gokdogan is an AIM-120C equivalent not something from the Vietnam War Era like the K-13.

edit:

the Iterative analogy doesn't work, b/c youn aren't iterating on a Chinese design and you don't operate a nuclear sub.

Turkey had the Harpoon and the AIM-120C in its pocession and use, so it was able to have a deep understanding of the weapon.

Besides none of these are as complicated as a Nuclear Submarine. So where is this iteration talking point coming from?

Everything Turkey has built, it had some experience with a similar platform via either sales or via codevelopment, and nothing Turkey has developed so far is as complicated as a nuclear submarine. You are using talking points that don't fit.

I believe this is going in circles...

Pakistan would ITERATE ON ITS OWN DESIGN.

Is this a hard concept to grasp?

PAEC has significant experience with PWR's operating them and deeply understanding them for decades.

Your entire argument is unclear. One point its muh submarine, the other, its Muh reactor, the other times, its muh i didnt like his words.

PAEC knows its shit. It has a deep understanding, underlined by a heavy, heavy research base and experience. From international collaboration, to literally numerous domestic research reactors.

Once again, i will outline this for you simply.

Development initiated > Product ready > Not great, as expected > experience gained > applied the gained experience to design > improved variant produced > further iterate and develop >... > operational product.

In the meantime however, the Navy should lease a submarine from China to gain operational and tactical experience.

 

[Ak01]

Whats your ETA on Pakistan's one Nuclear Submarine design?

Its been "working" on this for a while now, according to some of the users here.

So give us an ETA, then i will come back and check if the indigenous submarine without Chinese Help exists.

No point in arguing further when the only response I seem to get is "you just don't know our skillz bro".

No, there really is not, we are all wasting our time here, particularly since you actually lack any understanding of the topic you're talking about.

Submarine projects take years. Id anticipate something around the 2050's in the way of a functional prototype reactor design. with 2075's for something operational in real numbers.

Seems about right. Anticipate that Agosta's will be earmarked for retirement in 2035, a new design will be built locally by NRDI and a Partner based off of the SWAT's tender, thi brings us to 2050, then the further 25 years to iterate, develop and operationalise any submarine that will have stemmed from our nuclear program. It is laughable for you to think the PN wont get one. Nobody sells these things, Soviets wouldnt even let Indians into the control rooms, what makes you think the Chinese will assist...

 

[Ak01]

it was neither serviceable nor fit for purpose, go look at how many times China bothered to deploy it, rather than it sitting close to shore as a training vessel.

It purpose:
Give China experience in designing, adapting, developing and also gaining experience in nuclear submarine propulsion. Giving China the opportunity to learn and iterate.

The outcome:
Two further generations of reactor produced.

success.

Hyperman's version of purpose and objective is China shoukld have built super duper weapon in its first attempt...

 

[hyperman]

Id anticipate something around the 2050's in the way of a functional prototype reactor design. with 2075's for something operational in real numbers.

This is a comical timeline. 2075 to field boats.

How long has Pakistan been working on these Nuclear Submarines? I've been hearing about this nuclear submarine since the late 2000s.

 

[hodor]

This is basically what people said about the TFX when Turkiye announced plans to develop their own fighter back in 2016. Heck, there are people who posted on this very thread who didn't think TFX would ever fly.,

Just as Turkish enthusiasts are aware of their actual aerospace capabilities, we Pakistanis are aware of our nuclear capacity.

If you can, read the book "Eating Grass." It'll give you a detailed account of the history of Pakistan's nuclear program, technical capacity, R&D, industrial capacity, and so on. If you read it cover-to-cover, you'll see what we're saying.

We are talking about the pinnacle of technology that only 5 countries in the world can do.

Turkey's TFX project has realistic goals. First, we are aiming for a 4.5 generation fighter equivalent to the F-15. Later on, it will be a full-fledged fifth-generation fighter.

 

[Ak01]

This is a comical timeline. 2075 to field boats.

How long has Pakistan been working on these Nuclear Submarines? I've been hearing about this nuclear submarine since the late 2000s.

when you're interested in discussing in good faith, let me know

 

[hodor]

when you're interested in discussing in good faith, let me know

Any official announcement? Is the timeline your guess?

 

[hyperman]

Hyperman's version of purpose and objective is China shoukld have built super duper weapon in its first attempt...

No, thats not it.

Even with the sunk cost of the Type 91, Chinese could afford to do it and be a complete waste in deployment b/c they had a lot more money proportionally than what Pakistan has right now. China was the 8th largest economy in the world when the Type 91 was commissioned.

So even if it failed to meet expectations and wasn't deployable, china could afford to absorb the cost.

Its the Same with the Tejas. India can afford to absorb the Cost of such a badly managed project with low yield. But not Pakistan. Pakistan instead opted for a Chinese Partnership. That was not only the safer route, it proved to be more successful.