Why Secularism will Worsen Pakistan’s security situation

[Sharma Ji]

oh bhai yous wuz saved by Nehru and Indra Gaanddi and Rajiv Gaanddi......all educated refined Indians and they gave you a head start toward success no?

Today all yous got is dalit jaahils at da helm!

They'll eventually destroy yous!

The first sign of trouble is when a jahil demagogue from the bottom of society (lower caste chai waala mulla) comes to power.

You know this is a fact.......

Putting down secular educated people who realized how far behind our region is viz a viz da west and set yous up for success is ridiculous!

Nothing tripartisan here on India vs pakistan or bangladesh.

@vsdoc ......apnay logon ko samjha bhai........lol

We tried it, bro.

Nahi chala.

Fascism ka zamana hai, it's the viral new thing in town. All the cool kids goin fascy, brozuddin !

 

[hussain0216]

What you are afraid of and the values you are advocating for are no different than the ones conservatives all over the world share ..... your problems stem from identity crisis ......you want to live up to your identity ..... question is ! Do we really have to live our lives the way our identity is asking us to live ?

Values CANNOT be sustained if they are not taught from birth, otherwise they just become random sayings

And random sayings when pitted against biological urges and the easy path are worthless


In the past I have worked in places with multiple non-muslims and the failure of their relationship and family systems was stark

Just jumping from one relationship to the other, social media and tinder obsessed
Single mothers with children from multiple fathers
Men whose biological children were bought up by step fathers and new boyfriends of the mother's


It's a mess

In such a system, the collapse of the family, which is the cornerstone of community and society is inevitable



Islam is VITAL for us to maintain our family system, our relationship system and build strong communities preserving our values, faith, culture and families


Others are collapsing, we need to SEE the problems and not make them ourselves


This liberal secular, feminist crap is poisonous

 

[hussain0216]

Demographic fallout is a result of higher wealth rather than culture. Or rather, as wealth of a country increases, cultural change inevitably results causing all those issues you mentioned. With higher wealth, people start thinking of stuff outside earning 3 meals, finding a mate, having children etc. Compare any Islamic country with a GDP/Living standard comparable to the west and you will find birth rates that are similar to the west, maybe slightly higher. Most places in the world had birth rates of like 6-7 30 -40 years ago, the shitty places now have 3-5, moderately ok places have 2-3 and extremely developed places have 1-2.

As for your comment about the dating pool, is marriage, especially arranged any different? The only thing in arranged is looks don't matter a lot, but money and power just end up mattering much more. If you don't have money or power, you have very low chances of finding a suitable mate, since the other family is always searching for a family with money and power. You have a much higher change of finding someone who likes you for your personality in the dating pool, rather than through an arranged match where they are only looking at the size of your bank account or power/political connections.

It's about outlook and mindset

In a open dating market you can categorize men and women into the old 1-10 system based upon how good looking or attractive as a package they are

This creates delusions

A 10 man wants to sleep with a 10 woman
But he will also take a 9,8,7,6, hell even 5 or a 4 if he is horny and no other options become available

A 10 woman wants a 10 man, and the only way she will lower her standards is if the man has abundance of wealth or status


So in a open dating market with social media and tinder and all the rest

A small demographic of tall, good looking men with money and status have this massive advantage and ability to sleep with women 24/7, 365 days of the year

A date every night etc etc


Many if those women are just average, it's just that male sexual proclivity means that men will sleep around and are eager for new sex with different partners


Men however don't have the same advantage
Men WANT to sleep with a 10 but in reality they will take ANYTHING

So a lower demographic of men ie 1-5 is being FROZEN out of the dating market completely

As women in their 20's, get access to higher value better looking men, these men are OUT OF THEIR LEAGUE but they will still sleep with these women
That's where the delusion comes in, these women mistakenly think that they are on equal footing with these higher value men, when the men just want sex

Now do this for a decade, and you have women just picking up multiple sex partners, and a head full of trauma, baggage and mental anguish about the men they fell in love with who treated them like dirt


Then in their 30s they panic and marry the losers they rejected for a decade+, but those guys don't stack up the the studs that banged them in their 20s

So the women inevitably tend to be unhappy and this leads to a collapse in marriage, cheating and the situation we find ourselves in today

 

[Joe Shearer]

If a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water and slowly heated, the frog will not perceive the danger and will be boiled to death.

I am not against any reform of society or values. I just think that reforms such as these, which will inevitably harm the interests of vested interests and cause a huge backlash, should be acted upon like boiling a frog in cold water.

We should reach the ultimate goal through gradual improvement. Each step should be supported by as many people as possible, and new vested interests should be nurtured in the course of gradual reforms.

China is a negative example. Our ruling party has always used the most drastic means to achieve its goals, the “Great Leap Forward”, the “Cultural Revolution”, the “Family Planning”, etc., and every time we pay an unnecessary price for it. . The people of Pakistan can learn our lessons and not repeat our mistakes.

That was unexpected, and refreshing in its frankness.

 

[hussain0216]

It's about outlook and mindset

In a open dating market you can categorize men and women into the old 1-10 system based upon how good looking or attractive as a package they are

This creates delusions

A 10 man wants to sleep with a 10 woman
But he will also take a 9,8,7,6, hell even 5 or a 4 if he is horny and no other options become available

A 10 woman wants a 10 man, and the only way she will lower her standards is if the man has abundance of wealth or status


So in a open dating market with social media and tinder and all the rest

A small demographic of tall, good looking men with money and status have this massive advantage and ability to sleep with women 24/7, 365 days of the year

A date every night etc etc


Many if those women are just average, it's just that male sexual proclivity means that men will sleep around and are eager for new sex with different partners


Men however don't have the same advantage
Men WANT to sleep with a 10 but in reality they will take ANYTHING

So a lower demographic of men ie 1-5 is being FROZEN out of the dating market completely

As women in their 20's, get access to higher value better looking men, these men are OUT OF THEIR LEAGUE but they will still sleep with these women
That's where the delusion comes in, these women mistakenly think that they are on equal footing with these higher value men, when the men just want sex

Now do this for a decade, and you have women just picking up multiple sex partners, and a head full of trauma, baggage and mental anguish about the men they fell in love with who treated them like dirt


Then in their 30s they panic and marry the losers they rejected for a decade+, but those guys don't stack up the the studs that banged them in their 20s

So the women inevitably tend to be unhappy and this leads to a collapse in marriage, cheating and the situation we find ourselves in today

The only way to counter the above, is values, faith instilled in families and children to keep people on track

Sometimes pandoras box needs to remain closed and you need to protect the minds of the youth from every debauchery so they have a chance of pair bonding with a partner

 

[hussain0216]

If a frog is placed in boiling water, it will jump out, but if it is placed in cold water and slowly heated, the frog will not perceive the danger and will be boiled to death.

I am not against any reform of society or values. I just think that reforms such as these, which will inevitably harm the interests of vested interests and cause a huge backlash, should be acted upon like boiling a frog in cold water.

We should reach the ultimate goal through gradual improvement. Each step should be supported by as many people as possible, and new vested interests should be nurtured in the course of gradual reforms.

China is a negative example. Our ruling party has always used the most drastic means to achieve its goals, the “Great Leap Forward”, the “Cultural Revolution”, the “Family Planning”, etc., and every time we pay an unnecessary price for it. . The people of Pakistan can learn our lessons and not repeat our mistakes.

Yes but In the end the frog is still being boiled alive, whether it's slow or quick

Maybe boiling the frog is not a good thing at all

 

[313Ghazi]

Secularism doesn't mean you become an atheist, it just means seperating state from religion so there is no bias in governance. It can be done tastefully and enhance Pakistaniyat and bring everyone closer.

The aim is to become like Turkey, how Jinnah envisioned. I can already see the outline of it forming, just need to clear out the trouble makers and wait for the Pashtuns and Baloch to catch up in social development to the Punjabis and Sindhis.

Good governance and secularism is not the same thing.

Pakistan does not suffer from poor governance due to religion, we suffer from poor governance due to elite capture.

I live in a secular country. 20 years ago this country had good governance. Today it does not. Religion played no part in that. Discrimination has increased, be it racial, religious, economic or based on sexual identity.

Ironically in the UK the Church is helping social cohesion, rather than tearing at the fabric of society like the atheist capitalists.

 

[politicallyinterested]

Good governance and secularism is not the same thing.

Pakistan does not suffer from poor governance due to religion, we suffer from poor governance due to elite capture.

I live in a secular country. 20 years ago this country had good governance. Today it does not. Religion played no part in that. Discrimination has increased, be it racial, religious, economic or based on sexual identity.

Ironically in the UK the Church is helping social cohesion, rather than tearing at the fabric of society like the atheist capitalists.

Pakistan's poor governance is 100% also influenced by religion (as well as general incompetency & corruption too)You can't compare this situation to the UK. And I have seen this personally first hand.

Do you know about religious groups who oppose updates to the educational curriculum because apparently it is anti-Islam? Or groups that arbitrarily declare anything as 'haram' and bring up some complex debate whether it's allowed or not? Or how Islam was used as an excuse to oppose land reforms? Or some groups using it try and deny very basic things like education to women? Or like the establishment propping up Islamist proxies who it thought were its muslim buddies doing jihad until they backfired significantly (Taliban)?

 

[Sharma Ji]

You can't shelter and keep people locked away forever @hussain0216

A lot of non muslim people have perfectly healthy relationships, there's no sleeping around with everyone etc involved.

People should be free to mingle, sometimes sparks fly, people get together with others of entirely different backgrounds etc.. it's normal.

Conservatism isn't exclusive to you lot, there's plenty of very old skool Hindu and Sikh and Xtian folk out there too.

 

[313Ghazi]

Also we have no islam implemented in Pakistan. That is all dramabaazi.

 

[hussain0216]

You can't shelter and keep people locked away forever @hussain0216

A lot of non muslim people have perfectly healthy relationships, there's no sleeping around with everyone etc involved.

People should be free to mingle, sometimes sparks fly, people get together with others of entirely different backgrounds etc.. it's normal.

Conservatism isn't exclusive to you lot, there's plenty of very old skool Hindu and Sikh and Xtian folk out there too.

Your right you can't keep people locked up

But this is where upbringing, values and faith comes in

Instilling values, faith and culture in your children and families is vital

Otherwise you end up with a whoredom

Mess up the system, make your girls and women delusional and then society will suffer the consequences



And your a Hindu, I don't really care what you do to your families or women or community, you do what you want and go for it


I'm saying this to Muslims that preservation of faith, values and culture is vital for our future

 

[PakAl]

A common misconception is that by secularising the country, religious extremist groups like TTP/ISKP will lose support, improving the security and economic situation of Pakistan.

The reality is, terrorism in Pakistan has no ideology; it is a result of genuine sentiments of vulnerable segments of society being exploited by malicious foreign actors to do their bidding (like destroying P3s and F-7s).

Removing Islam from Pakistan will not remove these sentiments, nor will such an undignified act of self hatred pacify the foreign hands behind the terrorists. (Rather, the world will laugh at you for surrendering your core ideology with such cowardice).

If Pakistan become secular, instead of facing a single religous terrorist group (TTP), the state would be fractured along the lines of its 60+ ethnicities, each with their own terrorist outfit. Imagine instead of just TTP, you have BLA, SRA on steroids?

As long as there is a largely illiterate and poor population constantly being exposed to hostile propaganda exemplified by genuine failures of governance, there will ALWAYS be a recruitment base for foreign controlled terrorist groups.

So what happens next?

The state would Balkanize along ethnic lines. Then the Indians would swoop in, dispose of their useful secular ethno-nationalist idiots, and embark on an Israel-style program of settler colonialism, just like they already are in the secularised occupied Kashmir valley. In the west, the militant Pashtuns and Baloch would be genocided Gaza-style and similarly replaced with Indian settler colonists. At best, the new ethnic states can hope to live as undignified slaves of India, like the Bangladeshis have for most of their history. (So much for the Sindhudeshis gaining freedom from UP-Bihari foreigners…)

There is no benefit to secularism - for Pakistan, it is as absurd an ideology as khwarji extremism is.

Instead, the state should strictly enforce moderate Islam, emphasizing the core principles of deen to ensure social harmony.

Pakistan is already a secular state, this is why our ruling elite, MNAs, MPAs never follow Islam and its teachings. The Masjids, Maddrassas are privately funded and the state does not enforce any type of Islam in Pakistan. The religious extremist groups are foreign funded aswell. The blashmephy laws are never implemented but are misused to arrest the innocents, similarly how the elite get away with corruption but the reri wala gets punished.

 

[Sharma Ji]

Your right you can't keep people locked up

But this is where upbringing, values and faith comes in

Instilling values, faith and culture in your children and families is vital

Otherwise you end up with a whoredom

Mess up the system, make your girls and women delusional and then society will suffer the consequences



And your a Hindu, I don't really care what you do to your families or women or community, you do what you want and go for it


I'm saying this to Muslims that preservation of faith, values and culture is vital for our future

Why are you even bothering preaching to the choir ?

Afaic, Musalmans are already the most conservative group just about anywhere on earth.

 

[PakAl]

Secularism doesn't mean you become an atheist, it just means seperating state from religion so there is no bias in governance. It can be done tastefully and enhance Pakistaniyat and bring everyone closer.

The aim is to become like Turkey, how Jinnah envisioned. I can already see the outline of it forming, just need to clear out the trouble makers and wait for the Pashtuns and Baloch to catch up in social development to the Punjabis and Sindhis.

Pakistan has already separated religion from state, this is the reason we are suffering since foreigners sponsore and fund religious groups in our country, this lead to them dictating our society through their fatwas. The Bangladeshis liberation was was not a religious war but led by secular politicians.

 

[PakAl]

Agreed, liberal secularism is toxic and will destroy a nations culture

What we need is Islam and Pakistaniyat

In the west overt secular liberalism has led to degeneracy, destruction of the family, community and people are now devoid of any values and morals and can't be saved because they have experienced too much

We have unfortunately gone astray from the path shown by Allama Iqbal, which was a moderate Islamic welfare state, a state that promotes unity, Brotherhood, education, progress, technology, science, art, Islamic culture, welfare state.