Why Secularism will Worsen Pakistan’s security situation

[PakAl]

Zia destroyed our society. The damage he has inflicted upon us is irreparable.

We are still wearing that dead afghani albatross around our necks!

Still paying for his blunder.

It took 20 years to make people radical, it will take atleast 40 years to eradicate this cancer, we are already 20 years in to it and by around 2040 if we survive we will be alot better. The jahalat is something else, it will not change unless we get 90% literacy rate and good basic education on morals, values, ethics. Remember educated society can also be extremely jahil if they are fed the wrong education.

Another issue people neglect is with billions of funding for the radicals, they became powerful, they then made influence in to mainland Pakistan society, they overtook masjids, government offices, universities, tv channels and spread their ideologies.
The majority Muslims rejected this, these same radicals then took the violent road, created militant organisations, killed 70k people, 5k army officers, 150B economy loss, but it still didn't work because our society is corrupt no doubt but are not radical islamist, slowly we will witness these same radicals will change their ways and pretend to be sweet in order to influence people for chanda, this is something we are witnessing now, watch this space, these same people will become western lovers very soon.

An example is Algeria, their society became extremists, the Islamic groups tried to overtake the state but ended up in a bloody war with the army, but the radicals lost the war. Today Algeria is alot better, the radicals are acting all sweet and peaceful. Algeria is also very clever, they are destroying extremists by funding and promoting an counter ideology to them, not falling for the extremists tricks again.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Ok, troll. Explains why Hinduism is confined to India and a few tiny pockets elsewhere while Islam is the largest religion on the planet and the majority religion in 60 + nations while a sizeable minority in many more.

Including in your very own India where some 250 million Muslims are found.

How many local Hindus in the Arab world or rest of the Islamic world outside of South Asia and Bali (on top of my head)? Zero. Or close to it. At least in the Arab world and West Asia/MENA there have never been any Hindus.

So much for "powerful identities" and "pride".

Carry on trolling.

BTW, I have no problem with Hindus or any non-Muslims. Your pathetic trolling in this thread is just that, trolling. Should have ignored your nonsense posts altogether.

Chechen, Bosnian, Indonesian, and Malaysian Muslims don’t claim to be Arabs, but Indian, Pakistani, and Bangladeshi Muslims often do, and that’s a fundamental difference. Muslims in the Indian subcontinent were forced to convert to Islam, which is why there is a stigma associated with being a converted Muslim. This stigma doesn’t exist in the rest of the Muslim world. You’ll rarely see an Arab Muslim and an Indian Hindu fighting over religion, but such conflicts are common among Muslims of the Indian subcontinent.

 

[PakAl]

We detested Hindus and Hinduism, so much so that we went through a brutal partition where millions suffered and died just so we could disassociate ourselves from Hindus and Hinduism

Why in the world would you think worship of idols Is something we would wish to associate with?

That's abit over the top. Muslims Hindus and Sikhs lived peacefully until the British came and made us fight. Not saying we didn't have wars before this but our society was different. The reason for partition was the hindutva racist nationalist ideology didn't accept Muslims, we had no choice but to create own state to preserve our Islamic culture. Shame we didn't follow through.

 

[_Arabia_]

Chechen, Bosnian, Indonesian, and Malaysian Muslims don’t claim to be Arabs, but Indian, Pakistani, and Bangladeshi Muslims often do, and that’s a fundamental difference. Muslims in the Indian subcontinent were forced to convert to Islam, which is why there is a stigma associated with being a converted Muslim. This stigma doesn’t exist in the rest of the Muslim world. You’ll rarely see an Arab Muslim and an Indian Hindu fighting over religion, but such conflicts are common among Muslims of the Indian subcontinent.

There are millions of Indonesians and Malaysians of Arab origins (from modern-day Yemen and KSA in particular). Bad example.

There were Arab communities in the Caucasus (for instance the lingua franca of Dagestan was Arabic less than 150 years ago). Anyway neither do South Asian Muslims. They might have some distant Arab ancestry or claim such a thing (Sayyid claims in particular) in a misunderstood understanding of it boosting their status but how many are we talking about here? It is a small minority. Your claims are thus nonsense. Never met any South Asian Muslim that claims to be an Arab when not the case.

Who in the real world is fighting about religion? I don't discuss religion with any strangers or non-Muslims unless asked to do so or encouraged.

Believe it or not but Arabs and Muslim South Asians don't discuss religion either when engaging. Such discussions are left for scholars and people who wish to have such discussions.

Are you discussing random aspects of Hinduism with fellow Hindus in India on a day to day basis?

As for forceful conversions, I don't know anything about that (Arabs were for sure not involved in this practice in South Asia) but I highly doubt that this was the case. If it was the case all of India would have been majority Muslim given the majority Muslim rule in the continent in the past 1000 years to a large degree.

I think that you are trying to provoke Pakistanis here. Not have a serious discussion. Either that or you are incredibly ignorant.

 

[PakAl]

I partially agree but there is no Islamic logic behind directly banning women from attending school or university. They can easily make separate female schools and universities like in numerous Muslim nations, KSA included. I think this is about culture (Pashtun) and ignorance. Same thing with bacha bazi which is a really shameful and disgusting practice. Same with female circumcision in places like Somalia and Egypt.

It reminds me of the logic behind some of our past ultra-conservative clerics who banned women driving after 1979. The argument was that it could lead to un-Islamic practices, mixing unrelated and unmarried males and females, lead to other vices etc. Now here 8 years after those doomsday arguments have largely been disproven. Besides most locals never supported such stupid laws that did not exist prior to 1979. I remember people who were against it, they are now buying cars to their daughters or female relatives and encouraging them to drive. One wrote many years ago in an article in Okaz that he was ashamed of him being against it due to ignorance. The guy had 3 or 4 daughters of his own if I recall.

I don't understand why SOME (not all) ultraconservative (at least self-proclaimed) clerics and Muslims make Islam overly complicated when this is overall not the case. Women driving CAN lead to vices, it does not necessarily need to at all. Women education CAN lead to negatives but in the vast majority of cases this is not the case. There are many such examples. I am talking about interpretations here not clear cut consensus rules such as for instance alcohol consumption, refraining from eating pork, not stealing (corruption) etc. which all Muslims agree with regardless of sect.


Modern-day Central Asia. Google Andronovo. Not modern-day Iranians or Afghans. Also most Indians and South Asians (outside of a few ethnic groups in Pakistan) are in their majority of a local stock in terms of DNA from the DNA tests that I have seen.

Yes I know about Saudi ultra conservatists. One person issued Fatwa women should cover one eye when outside because she can see through one, another one was suggesting to request women to drink their breastmilk so you can sit in the buses or work with them, this is so she will be as your mother. You be surprised many UK educated Muslims were praising this. We have similar people in Afghanistan and Pakistan, in Pakistan they don't have much power but in Afghanistan they do. I believe they allow primary level girls to attend but forbid higher education and above, they don't state the reason for it.

 

[PakAl]

Chechen, Bosnian, Indonesian, and Malaysian Muslims don’t claim to be Arabs, but Indian, Pakistani, and Bangladeshi Muslims often do, and that’s a fundamental difference. Muslims in the Indian subcontinent were forced to convert to Islam, which is why there is a stigma associated with being a converted Muslim. This stigma doesn’t exist in the rest of the Muslim world. You’ll rarely see an Arab Muslim and an Indian Hindu fighting over religion, but such conflicts are common among Muslims of the Indian subcontinent.

You chat alot of bubbles, clean example on how education alone doesn't make a person sensible.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

There are millions of Indonesians and Malaysians of Arab origins (from modern-day Yemen and KSA in particular). Bad example.

There were Arab communities in the Caucasus (for instance the lingua franca of Dagestan was Arabic less than 150 years ago). Anyway neither do South Asian Muslims. They might have some distant Arab ancestry or claim such a thing (Sayyid claims in particular) in a misunderstood understanding of it boosting their status but how many are we talking about here? It is a small minority. Your claims are thus nonsense. Never met any South Asian Muslim that claims to be an Arab when not the case.

Who in the real world is fighting about religion? I don't discuss religion with any strangers or non-Muslims unless asked to do so or encouraged.

Believe it or not but Arabs and Muslim South Asians don't discuss religion either when engaging. Such discussions are left for scholars and people who wish to have such discussions.

Are you discussing random aspects of Hinduism with fellow Hindus in India on a day to day basis?

As for forceful conversions, I don't know anything about that (Arabs were for sure not involved in this practice in South Asia) but I highly doubt that this was the case. If it was the case all of India would have been majority Muslim given the majority Muslim rule in the continent in the past 1000 years to a large degree.

I think that you are trying to provoke Pakistanis here. Not have a serious discussion. Either that or you are incredibly ignorant.

It’s not that Pakistani, Indian, or Bangladeshi Muslims are unaware of their Hindu ancestry—they just refuse to acknowledge it. As I mentioned earlier, there’s a stigma attached to being a forced convert. No South Asian Muslim would claim to be Arab in front of an actual Arab, but in South Asia, they will claim to be an Arab.

 

[hussain0216]

It’s not that Pakistani, Indian, or Bangladeshi Muslims are unaware of their Hindu ancestry—they just refuse to acknowledge it. As I mentioned earlier, there’s a stigma attached to being a forced convert. No South Asian Muslim would claim to be Arab in front of an actual Arab, but in South Asia, they will claim to be an Arab.

You have Hindu delusions

The Muslims of the subcontinent are unique, in Pakistan we are Kashmiri, Punjabi, sindhi, Baloch, pashtuns and more

In Bangladesh they are Bengali

These people have been here for thousands upon thousands of years

Islam is superior, why would we need to be Forced, sufis and others worked for centuries winning hearts and minds of the people and millions upon millions abandoned old religions and systems

Who the hell is pretending to be Arab?

We are Muslims, we just don't want to be connected with your kind

 

[PakAl]

As for forceful conversions, I don't know anything about that (Arabs were for sure not involved in this practice in South Asia) but I highly doubt that this was the case. If it was the case all of India would have been majority Muslim given the majority Muslim rule in the continent in the past 1000 years to a large degree.

I think that you are trying to provoke Pakistanis here. Not have a serious discussion. Either that or you are incredibly ignorant.

Islam already reached the subcontinent during Sahaba RadiAllah anhu time, then great sufis came and spread Islam, afterwards some wars took place. This region was majority hindu and till today is majority hindu, this is the proof they did not force people to convert, not denying some radical leader didn't do it but majority fell in love with Islam and its peaceful nature. This is what hindutva racist ideology propagates, this lead to separation otherwise Allama Iqbal and Muhammad Ali Jinnah wanted united India. The hindutva ideology wants Muslims destroyed in this area and move to Arabia.

 

[_Arabia_]

Yes I know about Saudi ultra conservatists. One person issued Fatwa women should cover one eye when outside because she can see through one, another one was suggesting to request women to drink their breastmilk so you can sit in the buses or work with them, this is so she will be as your mother. You be surprised many UK educated Muslims were praising this. We have similar people in Afghanistan and Pakistan, in Pakistan they don't have much power but in Afghanistan they do. I believe they allow primary level girls to attend but forbid higher education and above, they don't state the reason for it.

Such clerics were always in the fringe. Never heard about this example though. At least not from the official clergy. Such fringe statements, if accurate at all, probably came from the non-government clerics which from 1979 until some 10-15 years ago had a free "reign" to challenge the official discourse. Often among this fringe group of clerics and their supporters, there were almost a competition of who could become more conservative and restrictive.

But overall nothing ever as stupid as banning women education. Never heard something alike anywhere in KSA (ever) or in the Arab world. Even at the height of the Ikhwan's power during the early reign of Ibn Saud, women were encouraged to seek education and Ibn Saud himself made many such statements.

Anyway in terms of male/female interaction it is normal, well-accepted and certainly Islamic to restrict unnecessary contact between married and unrelated females and males in public outside of work and necessary obligations. You don't tend to socialize with unrelated females in private just like male and females are separate during weddings for instance (vast majority of cases). I think this is very common practices in all of the Muslim world by large.

Of course some (a minority) are not doing the above but I am talking about general/accepted beliefs by the majority or a large section of people.

 

[_Arabia_]

It’s not that Pakistani, Indian, or Bangladeshi Muslims are unaware of their Hindu ancestry—they just refuse to acknowledge it. As I mentioned earlier, there’s a stigma attached to being a forced convert. No South Asian Muslim would claim to be Arab in front of an actual Arab, but in South Asia, they will claim to be an Arab.

Forced converts? Do you have any evidence or scholarly work that somehow confirms your claim of South Asian Muslims being "forced converts"? Who forcibly converted them exactly? I can tell you that Arabs did not force them so who did it? The Mughals? You are writing nonsense again.

You are also talking about South Asian Muslims like they were/are one people. Not the case. A Pakistani Muslim is probably closer genetically to Middle Eastern people than Bangladeshi Muslims. At least the Baloch and Pashtuns. Look wise also.

Pakistanis and Indians are not the same people either. To begin with Indians are a recent creation (1947) and made up by many races, ethnic groups etc. What has a Punjabi Indian to do with an Indian from Kerala or an Indian Bengali or an Indian Dravidian from the South? You guys are more different from within than an Arab from Oman is to an Arab from Morocco. You even speak totally different languages.

I think your idea/concept of 1 united South Asia never existed.

Anyway ending it here as we are off-topic.

 

[OakTree23]

There are millions of Indonesians and Malaysians of Arab origins (from modern-day Yemen and KSA in particular). Bad example.

There were Arab communities in the Caucasus (for instance the lingua franca of Dagestan was Arabic less than 150 years ago). Anyway neither do South Asian Muslims. They might have some distant Arab ancestry or claim such a thing (Sayyid claims in particular) in a misunderstood understanding of it boosting their status but how many are we talking about here? It is a small minority. Your claims are thus nonsense. Never met any South Asian Muslim that claims to be an Arab when not the case.

Who in the real world is fighting about religion? I don't discuss religion with any strangers or non-Muslims unless asked to do so or encouraged.

Believe it or not but Arabs and Muslim South Asians don't discuss religion either when engaging. Such discussions are left for scholars and people who wish to have such discussions.

Are you discussing random aspects of Hinduism with fellow Hindus in India on a day to day basis?

As for forceful conversions, I don't know anything about that (Arabs were for sure not involved in this practice in South Asia) but I highly doubt that this was the case. If it was the case all of India would have been majority Muslim given the majority Muslim rule in the continent in the past 1000 years to a large degree.

I think that you are trying to provoke Pakistanis here. Not have a serious discussion. Either that or you are incredibly ignorant.

I respect your responses to this Hindu c*mstain on a Lindu. I enjoy your posts as we’ve had good discussion in the past.

I am one of those ethnic Pakistanis who are also Seyyid. Think @Cookie Monster might have put it more effectively on another post about Seyyids in Pakistan.

Due to the civil strife after Karbala, many Seyyids (not all) did migrate towards Iran/Afghanistan/Pakistan/India. But not everyone who claims to be Seyyid is actually one. It’s also used as a name and honorific title. Not to deviate from this good discussion, but the truth is not as simple.

I said this many years ago on the previous forum while explaining this to another brain dead Indian Hindu, they think we claim To be Arab, Turk, and Persian because we follow Islam very closely. Reading the Quran in Arabic, praying 5x day, observing the Islamic holidays. To an extremist Hindu (regardless of their education), they view this as SA Muslims trying to be something that they are not.

Whenever I’ve come across Muslims in other countries in the Middle East, I can’t emphasis enough that there is a deep connection between on the mere account of being Muslims. It’s like meeting your brothers after years of separation. Not a single time a religious discussion was had. There was no need for one. From Algerians to Jordanians to Egyptians to Qataris to Saudis to Iranians. This while myself being Shia, there was not a single issue between us (knowing that some of them were “Sunni.” Just putting it in perspective for others.

Additionally, to these extremist Hindus, so many Muslims in lands they mistakenly believe belongs to Pagans and Hindus, were worse than invaders, were traitor for giving up our previous pagan religions.

My dad side is Seyyid (and genetically it shows), whereas my mom is more local background (also shows somewhat).

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Forced converts? Do you have any evidence or scholarly work that somehow confirms your claim of South Asian Muslims being "forced converts"? Who forcibly converted them exactly? I can tell you that Arabs did not force them so who did it? The Mughals? You are writing nonsense again.

You are also talking about South Asian Muslims like they were/are one people. Not the case. A Pakistani Muslim is probably closer genetically to Middle Eastern people than Bangladeshi Muslims. At least the Baloch and Pashtuns. Look wise also.

Pakistanis and Indians are not the same people either. To begin with Indians are a recent creation (1947) and made up by many races, ethnic groups etc. What has a Punjabi Indian to do with an Indian from Kerala or an Indian Bengali or an Indian Dravidian from the South? You guys are more different from within than an Arab from Oman is to an Arab from Morocco. You even speak totally different languages.

I think your idea/concept of 1 united South Asia never existed.

Anyway ending it here as we are off-topic.

I have no issue with Pakistanis claiming to be Arabs. In fact, we Indians would be quite happy if they identified as Arabs instead of Indians in the West.

 

[Lulldapull]

It took 20 years to make people radical, it will take atleast 40 years to eradicate this cancer, we are already 20 years in to it and by around 2040 if we survive we will be alot better. The jahalat is something else, it will not change unless we get 90% literacy rate and good basic education on morals, values, ethics. Remember educated society can also be extremely jahil if they are fed the wrong education.

Another issue people neglect is with billions of funding for the radicals, they became powerful, they then made influence in to mainland Pakistan society, they overtook masjids, government offices, universities, tv channels and spread their ideologies.
The majority Muslims rejected this, these same radicals then took the violent road, created militant organisations, killed 70k people, 5k army officers, 150B economy loss, but it still didn't work because our society is corrupt no doubt but are not radical islamist, slowly we will witness these same radicals will change their ways and pretend to be sweet in order to influence people for chanda, this is something we are witnessing now, watch this space, these same people will become western lovers very soon.

An example is Algeria, their society became extremists, the Islamic groups tried to overtake the state but ended up in a bloody war with the army, but the radicals lost the war. Today Algeria is alot better, the radicals are acting all sweet and peaceful. Algeria is also very clever, they are destroying extremists by funding and promoting an counter ideology to them, not falling for the extremists tricks again.

I knew this Algerian guy in the US and back in the 90's they were going thru this brutal jihadist war in Algeria with tens of thousands of deaths. Absolutely horrible situation like our Kp/ Balochi drama. They finally suppressed it after a lot of trouble and blood n treasure. Turned out the jihadists were all Mossad backed. Its a case study of how Israel interferes in muslim countries using deception. The Algerian guy mentioned how the Mossad ran the entire campaign to destabilize Algeria.

These same yahuday now greedily eyeing getting back into Iran any which way imaginable and dismantle the Ayatollahs and bring back some chutiya outfit like turdogan or King playstation type of regime and stifle the last bit of opposition to their full control over the ME.

Tyaar betthay hain yahuday and now openly threatening regime change in Iran.

 

[Indos]

There are millions of Indonesians and Malaysians of Arab origins (from modern-day Yemen and KSA in particular). Bad example.

There were Arab communities in the Caucasus (for instance the lingua franca of Dagestan was Arabic less than 150 years ago). Anyway neither do South Asian Muslims. They might have some distant Arab ancestry or claim such a thing (Sayyid claims in particular) in a misunderstood understanding of it boosting their status but how many are we talking about here? It is a small minority. Your claims are thus nonsense. Never met any South Asian Muslim that claims to be an Arab when not the case.

Who in the real world is fighting about religion? I don't discuss religion with any strangers or non-Muslims unless asked to do so or encouraged.

Believe it or not but Arabs and Muslim South Asians don't discuss religion either when engaging. Such discussions are left for scholars and people who wish to have such discussions.

Are you discussing random aspects of Hinduism with fellow Hindus in India on a day to day basis?

As for forceful conversions, I don't know anything about that (Arabs were for sure not involved in this practice in South Asia) but I highly doubt that this was the case. If it was the case all of India would have been majority Muslim given the majority Muslim rule in the continent in the past 1000 years to a large degree.

I think that you are trying to provoke Pakistanis here. Not have a serious discussion. Either that or you are incredibly ignorant.

The Arabs coming to Indonesia is longer than that. It is reported by ancient Arab voyager Ibnu Batutah that when he visited Indonesia, Sumatra Island, is one of the Island he visited, that he see Arab villages there, as well as Chinese villages. Those Arabs and Chinese have surely become local ethnic now.

Something that is pretty new that the latest research shows many Algerian was coming during Majapahit Hindu Kingdom and help local Sultanate in Demak, East Java, defeated Majapahit Kingdom. This then prompted the left over Hindu Majapahit move to Bali Island which is not far from East Java

This is found using research on ancient information found in Hindu Temple and ancient script in Java Island

But Sumatra Island, located near Malaca Strait, is of course the first to adopt Islam and the first big Sultanate in Indonesia, Samudera Pasai.