Pakistan Navy Aviation

[Hussain]

The Z-18F in ASW configuration.

It comes in multiple variants and would be an ideal replacement for our Sea Kings.

Z-20Jand Z-18F would be a good combo. What do you guys think?

@Quwa @Oscar @JamD Any input would be appreciated

 

[Quwa]

View attachment 108608
The Z-18F in ASW configuration.

It comes in multiple variants and would be an ideal replacement for our Sea Kings.

Z-20Jand Z-18F would be a good combo. What do you guys think?

@Quwa @Oscar @JamD Any input would be appreciated

It depends on a few things:

1. Is it available for export? IIRC, the Z-8/18-series aren't in AVIC's catalog, though the civilian AC313 is, but the AC313 isn't configured for specialized naval roles like ASW.

2. Upfront procurement cost is probably competitive compared to everything else.

3. Long-term lifecycle cost is not as clear. China's the only operator, and the PN will have to rely on solely the Chinese for spare parts, maintenance support, etc. While costlier to buy upfront, the European helicopters have multiple operators and a larger network of maintenance support and spare parts suppliers.

 

[Be dazzled]

They bought trash worthy seakings that would've otherwise ended up in a junkyard anyway. No new helos for now. Sad state of helo fleet is costing lives.

 

[Yasser76]

It depends on a few things:

1. Is it available for export? IIRC, the Z-8/18-series aren't in AVIC's catalog, though the civilian AC313 is, but the AC313 isn't configured for specialized naval roles like ASW.

2. Upfront procurement cost is probably competitive compared to everything else.

3. Long-term lifecycle cost is not as clear. China's the only operator, and the PN will have to rely on solely the Chinese for spare parts, maintenance support, etc. While costlier to buy upfront, the European helicopters have multiple operators and a larger network of maintenance support and spare parts suppliers.

Will they even fit in the hanger of a Babur/Yarmook?

 

[Hussain]

3. Long-term lifecycle cost is not as clear. China's the only operator, and the PN will have to rely on solely the Chinese for spare parts, maintenance support, etc. While costlier to buy upfront, the European helicopters have multiple operators and a larger network of maintenance support and spare parts suppliers.

Thank You Bhai,
Can you tell us about the Z-9 experience, in comparison to other inducted platforms?

As to #3 This was my gut feeling, since there was a minor hiccup with the Jeff prog, prior to the J10's. Nonetheless, appreciate your feedback.

 

[FuturePAF]

It depends on a few things:

1. Is it available for export? IIRC, the Z-8/18-series aren't in AVIC's catalog, though the civilian AC313 is, but the AC313 isn't configured for specialized naval roles like ASW.

2. Upfront procurement cost is probably competitive compared to everything else.

3. Long-term lifecycle cost is not as clear. China's the only operator, and the PN will have to rely on solely the Chinese for spare parts, maintenance support, etc. While costlier to buy upfront, the European helicopters have multiple operators and a larger network of maintenance support and spare parts suppliers.

Perhaps the Turkish Gokbey helicopter may suit the PN better? Considering Türkiye expertise with the Seahawk, and decades of experience operating in unique coastline and sea lanes where many subs haves traversed.

 

[Hussain]

Perhaps the Turkish Gokbey helicopter may suit the PN better? Considering Türkiye expertise with the Seahawk, and decades of experience operating in unique coastline and sea lanes where many subs haves traversed.

When buying a product, used only by a single user, makes us vulnerable to their whims and fancies.

Even if Capex/Opex is high, we should stick to hardware whose spares will not be an issue. No point in buying something, for it to be grounded later due to spares availability.

 

[FuturePAF]

When buying a product, used only by a single user, makes us vulnerable to their whims and fancies.

Even if Capex/Opex is high, we should stick to hardware whose spares will not be an issue. No point in buying something, for it to be grounded later due to spares availability.

Turkey and China are both countries with many products they only produce. Turkey is more likely to have products based on similar systems from Europe, so spares or common equipment maybe available from multiple sources.

Furthermore, specifically on ASW helicopters, Turkey has a long history dealing with Soviet and later Russian as well as NATO submarines traversing the Dardanelles (a narrow point where they can lay sensors) in and out of the Black Sea, so their knowledge of signatures of modern submarines is probably as good as any other.

 

[Hussain]

Given how aircraft carriers are a reality, we do need AEW a/c's, be it Helicopter based AEW or otherwise.

PN Aviation does not seem to be a priority, so a helo based AEW is more of wishful thinking.

An alternate could be a drone based AEW, but right now, does one exist that could cater to the high power consumption?

Secondly, it would be operating in a highly contested EW arena, so would need outstanding anti-EW capabilities / jam resistance.

Can we expect some sort of dedicated AEW platform in the next 5 to 10 years?

 

[Hussain]

their knowledge of signatures of modern submarines is probably as good as any other.

Our threat library is no joke either, we can arrange for a swap, I would be surprised if it hasn't happened till now.

Why invest billions in a system that could be held hostage by anyone?

 

[FuturePAF]

Our threat library is no joke either, we can arrange for a swap, I would be surprised if it hasn't happened till now.

Why invest billions in a system that could be held hostage by anyone?

That is indeed a weakness of Turkish products. In that regard, I agree going for a Chinese platform is a more logistical reliable option.

Personally, I like the look of the AC-313A, a large platform that could be adapted for many missions, including ship borne AEW role, which the navy will need as well.

Having visited an Italian Navy AW-101, it seemed like it was so full of equipment that future capability requirements maybe hard to squeeze into a smaller platform.

Obviously the Chinese have made great strides in electronics and Pakistan must indeed have a significant threat library as well. As always we will trust our naval professionals to pick what they think best suits the needs of the navy.

 

[Hussain]

That is indeed a weakness of Turkish products. In that regard, I agree going for a Chinese platform is a more logistical reliable option.

Personally, I like the look of the AC-313A, a large platform that could be adapted for many missions, including ship borne AEW role, which the navy will need as well.

Having visited an Italian Navy AW-101, it seemed like it was so full of equipment that future capability requirements maybe hard to squeeze into a smaller platform.

Obviously the Chinese have made great strides in electronics and Pakistan must indeed have a significant threat library as well. As always we will trust our naval professionals to pick what they think best suits the needs of the navy.

This might interest you:

The UK Navy has an ongoing project "Vixen".
IOC is aimed for 2030. The Merlins/AW101 with crowsnest will be retired after that.

The radar in the crowsnest is a Thales Searchwater 2000 derivative. It's a PD radar. They clearly went for a stopgap measure.

It achieved FOC in 2024 after a lot of issues. Current fleet stands at 5.

So after approx 6yrs of service Crowsnest will be retired, and Project Vixen will start induction. Something PN should be looking to emulate.

Btw Project Vixen isn't just an unmanned AEW, but loyal wingman, airborne refuler etc as well.

 

[Quwa]

The advantage with Turkiye is that there's a clear willingness to partner with the Pakistani industry.

For example, in 2018, TAI told me that if Pakistan opts for the T-625, TAI would set up an MRO centre in Pakistan that would support the entire Central Asian, East Asian, and Southeast Asian market. It was high-risk (in that the T625 may not get many orders), but also high-reward (if it becomes a long-term stable for civilian and military ops like the Huey, AW139, or S-70 did).

Worth noting that TAI signed an MoU with NRDI, so the PN may be working towards an original naval helicopter solution in collaboration with Turkiye.

 

[Tank131]

The advantage with Turkiye is that there's a clear willingness to partner with the Pakistani industry.

For example, in 2018, TAI told me that if Pakistan opts for the T-625, TAI would set up an MRO centre in Pakistan that would support the entire Central Asian, East Asian, and Southeast Asian market. It was high-risk (in that the T625 may not get many orders), but also high-reward (if it becomes a long-term stable for civilian and military ops like the Huey, AW139, or S-70 did).

Worth noting that TAI signed an MoU with NRDI, so the PN may be working towards an original naval helicopter solution in collaboration with Turkiye.

Original as in unique to Pakistan? Would prefer PN/PA join forces with TAI to produce T-625 and buy right to the project and even the turbine tech to help kick start local manufacturing and R&D much the way they did with Babur/JCF. T-625 has numerous military and civilian applications so it would be very big to have local chopper production on various fronts. Id imagine if PN/PAF, TuN and TuAF acquire it, Azeris probably wont be far behind. Could be offered through Pakistan to Bangladesh and Sri Lanka as well for naval ops and troop transports. For PAA alone you have around 60-70 choppers that are fast approaching need for replacement between Pumas and Bell 412. The AW139 are fairly new from my understanding but also only 7 of them.

For PN i can see it replacing aulette and z-9 but it isnt really in the lift realm as sea kings.

 

[Quwa]

Original as in unique to Pakistan? Would prefer PN/PA join forces with TAI to produce T-625 and buy right to the project and even the turbine tech to help kick start local manufacturing and R&D much the way they did with Babur/JCF. T-625 has numerous military and civilian applications so it would be very big to have local chopper production on various fronts. Id imagine if PN/PAF, TuN and TuAF acquire it, Azeris probably wont be far behind. Could be offered through Pakistan to Bangladesh and Sri Lanka as well for naval ops and troop transports. For PAA alone you have around 60-70 choppers that are fast approaching need for replacement between Pumas and Bell 412. The AW139 are fairly new from my understanding but also only 7 of them.

For PN i can see it replacing aulette and z-9 but it isnt really in the lift realm as sea kings.

Original as in a new naval helicopter option based on the T625. The design would need some rework for the ASW, ASuW, and maritime SAR roles.