Reason behind the Rise & Fall of the Muslim Mind & Power?

[Goenitz]

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I just came to know that earlier Muslim scholars were from the merchant class, like many Prophets. These scholars were independent in their opinion and were not under the government's patronage.

This freedom of idea was the man reason for early rise of Islam.

@_NOBODY_ @Waz @HRK

 

[SaadH]

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I just came to know that earlier Muslim scholars were from the merchant class, like many Prophets. These scholars were independent in their opinion and were not under the government's patronage.

This freedom of idea was the man reason for early rise of Islam.

@_NOBODY_ @Waz @HRK

That's just over complicating things. Earlier Islam was dominated by Arabs and persians who focused on science and learning. Islamic civilization never recovered after the Mongol destruction and after that it was taken over by Turks in all important regions, from Subcontinent to Central Asia to Middle East, Eastern Europe and even parts of North Africa. Turks tended to focus on martial activities and shia/sunni divide exacerbated the situation starting in 15th century with a permanent deep schism right in the middle of the ummah which created opposite poles and opposing alliances often with non-muslim powers against fellow muslims. The muslim world remained fractured and was easily co-opted by the European colonial powers.

 

[Goenitz]

That's just over complicating things. Earlier Islam was dominated by Arabs and persians who focused on science and learning. Islamic civilization never recovered after the Mongol destruction and after that it was taken over by Turks in all important regions, from Subcontinent to Central Asia to Middle East, Eastern Europe and even parts of North Africa. Turks tended to focus on martial activities and shia/sunni divide exacerbated the situation starting in 15th century with a permanent deep schism right in the middle of the ummah which created opposite poles and opposing alliances often with non-muslim powers against fellow muslims. The muslim world remained fractured and was easily co-opted by the European colonial powers.

the crux is the divide and other factors required the Mullah alliance with the govt, like the pope with the kings. This prevented many advances in science, history, literature and ultimately in exercising rationality and expressions.

Such as in Pak it was easy to teach us Mutala-e-Pakistan as a gospel, as we and our forefathers lacked the faculties to question the central power. They never questioned religious figures or any feudal or central power.

Like blaming foreigners/tagoot and distance from Islamic rituals for our downfall.

 

[muhammed45]

That's just over complicating things. Earlier Islam was dominated by Arabs and persians who focused on science and learning. Islamic civilization never recovered after the Mongol destruction and after that it was taken over by Turks in all important regions, from Subcontinent to Central Asia to Middle East, Eastern Europe and even parts of North Africa. Turks tended to focus on martial activities and shia/sunni divide exacerbated the situation starting in 15th century with a permanent deep schism right in the middle of the ummah which created opposite poles and opposing alliances often with non-muslim powers against fellow muslims. The muslim world remained fractured and was easily co-opted by the European colonial powers.

So very true. After Mongol attack, which was warned about by prophet of Islam, Islamic world was deeply divided esp racially, linguistically, ethnically and religiously. They looted and destroyed Iranian historical sites and scientific achievements. Some retarded nationalists try to associate those destructions to army of Islam led by Omar the second Sunni caliph which is a complete lie. Islam caused major advancements in Iran both in terms of science and culture.

The most important Sunni scholars have Iranian origin. Sunni Islam is the root, Shia Islam is the Fruit. (At least for us Iranians)

Note, from Islamic point of view, both Safavids and Ottomans were invaders and had to be destroyed for sake of a united Islamic front.

All in all, we are all bunch of pawns in the grand play ground of almighty. He knows the best and he will turn his light on even if it bothers Kuffar. Islamic pride will be restored and revived.

 

[Goenitz]

So very true. After Mongol attack, which was warned about by prophet of Islam, Islamic world was deeply divided esp racially, linguistically, ethnically and religiously. They looted and destroyed Iranian historical sites and scientific achievements. Some retarded nationalists try to associate those destructions to army of Islam led by Omar the second Sunni caliph which is a complete lie. Islam caused major advancements in Iran both in terms of science and culture.

The most important Sunni scholars have Iranian origin. Sunni Islam is the root, Shia Islam is the Fruit. (At least for us Iranians)

Note, from Islamic point of view, both Safavids and Ottomans were invaders and had to be destroyed for sake of a united Islamic front.

All in all, we are all bunch of pawns in the grand play ground of almighty. He knows the best and he will turn his light on even if it bothers Kuffar. Islamic pride will be restored and revived.

The modernisation died even before the Mongol attack. That is the main discussion. It wasn't one war or incident that changed our course. See examples of Japan and Germany, which suddenly rose after the war.

The main reason is that Muslims lost the freedom to interpret and say anything. Even Imam Ghazali said that learning Math is anti-Islam.

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The reason was so that no Muslim man could challenge the 'caliph'/king authority. If he did, he could be curbed by religious means like Galileo.

Hence, Muslims literacy rate went low. It was 5% during the Ottoman era. Therefore, Muslims in general were easy to subdue by fake government narratives/propaganda and sold bravado stories. Everything was blamed on foreigners.

Just see Pak or Iran example. We were never allowed to interpret and publish our history independently. Just before recently, we blamed everyone for our 71 disaster except the army, whereas it was solely responsible.

Our COAS can easily control 700k army because the personnel are made to follow orders of all kinds. Any progressive thought is rejected by the legacy, discipline, ethos and spirit of the army. @Fatman17

 

[stanfordgrad]

That's just over complicating things. Earlier Islam was dominated by Arabs and persians who focused on science and learning. Islamic civilization never recovered after the Mongol destruction and after that it was taken over by Turks in all important regions, from Subcontinent to Central Asia to Middle East, Eastern Europe and even parts of North Africa. Turks tended to focus on martial activities and shia/sunni divide exacerbated the situation starting in 15th century with a permanent deep schism right in the middle of the ummah which created opposite poles and opposing alliances often with non-muslim powers against fellow muslims. The muslim world remained fractured and was easily co-opted by the European colonial powers.

The Persians and peoples of Middle East prior to Islam were advanced in science and technology

 

[gangsta_rap]

The Persians and peoples of Middle East prior to Islam were advanced in science and technology

nobody asked for your opinion you cisgendered privileged white male

 

[VCheng]

Therefore, Muslims in general were easy to subdue by fake government narratives/propaganda and sold bravado stories. Everything was blamed on foreigners.

What a concise description of PDF, and Pakistan, by extension!

The key question to ask here is how to change that situation?

 

[SaadH]

The modernisation died even before the Mongol attack. That is the main discussion. It wasn't one war or incident that changed our course. See examples of Japan and Germany, which suddenly rose after the war.

The main reason is that Muslims lost the freedom to interpret and say anything. Even Imam Ghazali said that learning Math is anti-Islam.

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The reason was so that no Muslim man could challenge the 'caliph'/king authority. If he did, he could be curbed by religious means like Galileo.

Hence, Muslims literacy rate went low. It was 5% during the Ottoman era. Therefore, Muslims in general were easy to subdue by fake government narratives/propaganda and sold bravado stories. Everything was blamed on foreigners.

Just see Pak or Iran example. We were never allowed to interpret and publish our history independently. Just before recently, we blamed everyone for our 71 disaster except the army, whereas it was solely responsible.

Our COAS can easily control 700k army because the personnel are made to follow orders of all kinds. Any progressive thought is rejected by the legacy, discipline, ethos and spirit of the army. @Fatman17

No one man's musings were enough to reverse the course of 400/500 years of learning and scholarship in sciences in the Islamic world. Ghazali didn't stop science (a modern orientalist canard), it was political/economic rot which led to it. First by onslaught of Christendom in Andalusia and through crusades and finally with the Mongol destruction the final nail in the coffin of Islamic civilization was put in place. These calamities in quick succession weakened and destroyed the traditional avenues and centers of learning and empowered those (Turks) who didn't quite take on the mantel with same alacrity as their predecessors and preferred to engage in unsustainable conquests. The difference is quite clear to this day, of all the non Islamic lands Turks conquered, most managed to stay non-muslim in contrast to conquest under arabs.

 

[Goenitz]

What a concise description of PDF, and Pakistan, by extension!

The key question to ask here is how to change that situation?

just open debate and nothing else. It will enable people to protest, argue, get mature and question accordingly. Then, whenever they have power or means, they will implement the change.

 

[VCheng]

just open debate and nothing else. It will enable people to protest, argue, get mature and question accordingly. Then, whenever they have power or means, they will implement the change.

Yes, but the requisite for open debate is rationality, an attribute quite often lacking in a people ruled by their emotions - like PDF and Pakistan, for example.

 

[Developereo]

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I just came to know that earlier Muslim scholars were from the merchant class, like many Prophets. These scholars were independent in their opinion and were not under the government's patronage.

This freedom of idea was the man reason for early rise of Islam.

@_NOBODY_ @Waz @HRK

TLDR: Muslim society fell when scientific knowledge was seen as a threat not an asset to the state.

nobody asked for your opinion you cisgendered privileged white male

He is not white.
There are no white people on this forum except those working for the CIA.
The average white person in the West thinks Pakistan is some village in Afghanistan.

It boggles me how some Pakistanis on this forum are so childishly naive.

 

[SaadH]

He is not white.
There are no white people on this forum except those working for the CIA.
It boggles me how some Pakistanis on this forum are so childishly naive.

All cyber coolies and/or cyber sanghis...

 

[Goenitz]

No one man's musings were enough to reverse the course of 400/500 years of learning and scholarship in sciences in the Islamic world. Ghazali didn't stop science (a modern orientalist canard), it was political/economic rot which led to it. First by onslaught of Christendom in Andalusia and through crusades and finally with the Mongol destruction the final nail in the coffin of Islamic civilization was put in place. These calamities in quick succession weakened and destroyed the traditional avenues and centers of learning and empowered those (Turks) who didn't quite take on the mantel with same alacrity as their predecessors and preferred to engage in unsustainable conquests. The difference is quite clear to this day, of all the non Islamic lands Turks conquered, most managed to stay non-muslim in contrast to conquest under arabs.

again bro.. Japan/Germany rose after the war. Muslims couldn't as we were enjoying the borrowed progress done 100+ years before.
Again, no single war or incident is responsible for Muslim era demise.

In simple words, muslims lack confidence in every discipline as they have lost practice and knowledge exchange. Be it commerce or science. Ottomans mainly benefited in later years from the toll tax on trade goods.

No theory in economics, science, social science, medicine, urban planning, war, diplomacy, history, etc came from the muslims world in later years.

 

[Goenitz]

Yes, but the requisite for open debate is rationality, an attribute quite often lacking in a people ruled by their emotions - like PDF and Pakistan, for example.

We cannot bypass the learning curve. However, law enforcement will be needed, or many would suffer on blasphemy or treason charges.