PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[iblini]

Where can I keep up with Yankeesama's content and how often does Chinese military media talk of PAF?

I'm wondering if China would let PAF fly against the J-20 in their J-10Cs...

In the latest podcast, he did talked a lot about behind the story of both airforce, from cooperation, J10CE, PL15E, the Shaeen joint exercises, the Chinese airforce rdy to embrace the future with sixth gen etc.

He said the Chinese airforce pilots were not surprised at all after the Rafale down news came in because the Shaheen was in a much stronger situation both in term of engagement and EW environment,
he also mentioned, during 2019 Shaheen, PLAAF made a special version of J16 baby growler jet to simulate J16D as the later was still in final testing phase.

There are too much behind the story, I'll just stop here.

 

[Yommie]

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Is it possible the 145 km spec for PL-15E is speculative?

 

[ghazi52]

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[ghazi52]

 

[MH.Yang]

You hit the point on a lot of discussions like turning F7 or any jet into a shooter. With radar off and radio silent, you'd assume any jet could be the shooter but you might have missed that J10C's designs made it semi-stealthy and has IRST that senses threat even in radar-blind and communication-disrupted situations. That allows J10C approaches an enemy jet close enough for the shot and not be shot. I may be wrong but I'd think a F7 or H6 bomber cannot match J10C's battle efficiency in intense aerial battle that involves 4.5-gen enemy jets.

The range of PL-15 is 200km to 300km, this is because different planes, different altitudes, different speeds, the range of PL-15 they fire is different. the range of PL-15 of J-20 is definitely more than that of J-10C, and J-10C's is definitely more than that of JF-17.

the H-6 is the another track player, and just as a reminder, the H-6 is capable of firing the DF-21D.

 

[MH.Yang]

I have a question brother.

Can PAF link up to any PLAAF AWACS that could be / would be covering the entirety of IIOJK?

It would be a scary dilemma for Hindustan to grapple with and this is something that the analyst Pravin Sawhney has been mentioning for years that future conflicts won't be fought on two fronts but a 'reinforced one front".

This question should be a military secret. are the Pakistani members of the PDF able to answer it? I would also like to know the answer.

 

[FuturePAF]

I don't see the value in upgrading the F-16s at PAF.

In the current international situation, no one can provide F-16 upgrades to PAF for free.

Based on common sense, if PAF upgrades the F-16 (to or near F-16V standards), it will be a huge expense.

For reference: unit prices for upgrading F-16s in various countries
USAF: about 10 million dollars
Taiwan Air Force: about $32 million
Argentina: about 39 million dollars
The exact cost depends on the scope of the upgrade and the level of the upgrade.


The RD-93 engine generates less power (a common problem with Russian engines). This results in a very limited avionics system for the JF-17B3. I'm not sure about the RD-93MA.

The radar of JF-17B3, KLJ-7A, is very powerful and uses more electrical power. Using the RD-93 to power the KLJ-7A is very strenuous. It would have a hard time supporting longer radar runtimes at full power. Also, it limits the JF-17B3 from carrying more electronics.

The WS-21 engine follows the same technical path as the RD-93, but the details and materials are quite different. It is a very desirable alternative. However, the WS-21 engine is more expensive, it is very much more expensive than the RD-93 engine. ------ The J-35 foreign trade version uses all WS-21 engines. So, it certainly has enough power generation.


The biggest contributor to winning this air battle was the air warfare system platform behind it. J-10CE/JF-17B3+PL-15E.These are just the surface parts of this massive system. There are more and more powerful things hidden behind the scenes and they have not surfaced.

Objectively speaking, as far as fighter jets alone are concerned, the Rafale is a good fighter, and it is on a par with the J-10CE. In terms of overall performance, the Rafale is better than the J-10CE.

The root cause of India's air war losses is the chaotic and outdated air combat command system. In other words, they can't win this air battle even with F-22/F-35 and will lose to J-10CE as well.

Or, let me put it another way.
If we make some modifications to the PAF's F-7PG to make it support PL-15E, and a two-way datalink. Then, guided by other equipment (ground radar or AEW&C), it would be equally capable of launching a PL-15E in the same position to shoot down an IAF Rafale.
But we can't say that this F-7PG is much more advanced than Rafale . Right?

The value is in the diplomatic relations with the US and having a platform to field and test Turkish munitions and sensors, to better decide where the KAAN fighter would fit in the needs of the PAF.

With the acquisition of the J-35A and their WS-21 engines, the PAF should look to see how much of an effective gap there would be between the JF-17 with a WS-21 engine and the J-10CE in the PAF. If the JF-17 can be brought up to nearly the same capabilities as the J-10 in sensors and munitions, then acquisition of the J-10 could be stopped at 36, and a transition to the J-35 should. E done with full speed. The J-10 has limited growth potential, not just physically but also it seems there is limited to no desire to improve the plane within the PLAAF. The J-35, on the other hand seems to be platform the PLAN and possibly the PLAAF want to improve.

Therefore, and initial goal of the PAF to acquire the J-35A, IMHO should be for 36; 24 air superiority fighters and 12 J-35D fighters; electronic warfare fighters. These would be invaluable in the expected future electromagnetic environment across the international border and LOC, but especially in support of the Navy.

The level of Power generation from the WS-21 will be key going forward for PAF modernization.

Yes, we can’t say the F-7PG is a match for the Rafale. It’s more than the missile, it’s the entire environment.

 

[FuturePAF]

This question should be a military secret. are the Pakistani members of the PDF able to answer it? I would also like to know the answer.

I’m not privy to any secrets but l’ll give it an educated guess. It comes down to the datalinks and how interoperable China wants to be with the Pakistani military, considering they have their own desire to not be actively involved in a conflict unless fully necessary.

As far as if it’s technically possible; sure with how fast technology is advancing, datalinks are becoming more capable of carrying data than ever before.

Even as NATO transitions from Link 11/16 to Link 22/MADL, it is looking at new opportunities with the Midas Datalink. Sharing radar data as well as ESM and EW data.

Pakistani aircraft uses different antennas, from those on PLAAF fighters, as the PAF uses Link 17. But if the PAF replace the 3 ZDK-03 with at least 3 KJ-700 planes, then the plane could be fitted with next generation datalinks to share data with the PLAAF AWACS and pass that information on Link 17 to the current fleet very quickly. Making the KJ-700 a relay as well as a AWACS.

Other missions for the KJ-700 could include command and control (C2) as well as communications networking, especially valuable over the long distances in the Indo-Pacific theater.

The presentation on the upcoming MIDAS datalink

https://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=33464&sid=f5161a722dc08936601fc30df6f18da3

China’s New KJ-700 Multi-Intelligence Radar Plane's Interesting Features

The latest Chinese airborne early warning and control aircraft boasts an array of electro-optical and infrared sensors, as well as multiple radars. The latest Chinese airborne early warning and control aircraft boasts a very extensive array of electro-optical and infrared sensors, as well as radar.

www.twz.com

 

[iblini]

I’m not privy to any secrets but l’ll give it an educated guess. It comes down to the datalinks and how interoperable China wants to be with the Pakistani military, considering they have their own desire to not be actively involved in a conflict unless fully necessary.

As far as if it’s technically possible; sure with how fast technology is advancing, datalinks are becoming more capable of carrying data than ever before.

Even as NATO transitions from Link 11/16 to Link 22/MADL, it is looking at new opportunities with the Midas Datalink. Sharing radar data as well as ESM and EW data.

Pakistani aircraft uses different antennas, from those on PLAAF fighters, as the PAF uses Link 17. But it could replacing the 3 ZDK-03 with at least 3 KJ-700 planes, fitted with next generation datalinks to share data with the PLAAF and pass that on over Link 17 to the current fleet very quickly.



The presentation on the upcoming MIDAS datalink

https://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=33464&sid=f5161a722dc08936601fc30df6f18da3

China’s New KJ-700 Multi-Intelligence Radar Plane's Interesting Features

The latest Chinese airborne early warning and control aircraft boasts an array of electro-optical and infrared sensors, as well as multiple radars. The latest Chinese airborne early warning and control aircraft boasts a very extensive array of electro-optical and infrared sensors, as well as radar.

www.twz.com

kJ-3000, KJ-700, Divine eagle, WZ-7 forms up the backbone of PLAAF, but according to reliable source, part of their jobs will be taken by J-36 as AWEC in future aerial warfare is a bit vulnerable, risky with both side possess advance surveillance means and ultra long range missile beyond 500km.

 

[MastanKhan]

I honestly think that the radars on the planes were not the decisive factor(if they even got switched on by the PAF that .) but the AEW&C and the 'silent' kills of being guided by the AEW&C until they got into the terminal kill phase.

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Hi,

This video explains it better.

 

[FuturePAF]

kJ-3000, KJ-700, Divine eagle, WZ-7 forms up the backbone of PLAAF, but according to reliable source, part of their jobs will be taken by J-36 as AWEC in future aerial warfare is a bit vulnerable, risky with both side possess advance surveillance means and ultra long range missile beyond 500km.

It will have to a risk the PAF will have to take. This is why I advocate for the PAF to make sure 1/3 of the J-35A soon to be acquired are configured in an electronic attack variant, similar to the E/A-18 Growler. Some of these “E/A-35” can fly with the PAF air superiority J-35A, while others can fly alongside the AWACS in an electronic protection mission, using their high power Jammers to fry the electronic of attacking missiles.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Ex french air force pilot---on this subject

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very important information around 10 minutes

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

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3 videos on the subject.

Watching these videos, I realize that others will have 10 years to catch up where Paf is today---.

Paf has caught them sleeping---bad mouthing the chinese product---under estimating the chinese product---under estimating the Paf's technical & tactical prowess.

Those left behind have a long ways to go.

 

[FuturePAF]

Hi,

Ex french air force pilot---on this subject

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very important information around 10 minutes

Very interesting that nations have switched from under-estimating the PAF to now analyzing the JF-17 and J-10 in detail. I wouldn’t say over-estimating the PAF, but acknowledging the PAF is implementing an innovative doctrine and needs to be noted.

 

[CSAW]

"Any military who has to fight, even with the most modern weapons, against an enemy in complete command of the air, fights like a savage against modern Airpower equipped enemy, under the same handicaps and with the same chances of success. "