PL-15E and HQ-16FE improvements needed?

[Aziqbal]

The Pakistani government should make diplomatic efforts, preferably by getting the US to agree to the F16 for upgrades and Russia to agree to the Chinese sale of the J16. That might take some timing and diplomacy.

No I think more J10CE

we keep upgrading the JF17 program

and then we go for J-35

I dont think J16 has a role in Pakistan

 

[MH.Yang]

Come on bro... Pakistan doesn't have that kind of clout .

If you don't try, how do you know it can't be done? I don't think it will necessarily fail. India's relationship with Russia is not flawless and India is getting rid of Russian military equipment. And America, the lobby is useful.

 

[MH.Yang]

No I think more J10CE

we keep upgrading the JF17 program

and then we go for J-35

I dont think J16 has a role in Pakistan

The J-16 can use PL-17, which has a range of 500km, to kill Indian AWACS aircraft.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

The J-16 can use PL-17, which has a range of 500km, to kill Indian AWACS aircraft.

It's extremely expensive to operate especially being a heavy twin-engine jet, which likely puts it out the PAF's reach.

Also the J-16 is not for export and likely the Russians wouldn't approve given the IP issue/Indian diolomatic relationship.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

You will never match number of missiles India can throw at you. China isn't going to give you free missiles. India is like 4 times bigger in area. Hindutva regime doesn't care about border states like sikh punjab or muslim IoK. You have to hit Delhi, Mumbai, Gujarat etc

If India doesn't come to battlefield and want to fire missiles from safe distance then hit their infrastructure etc and nuclear missiles to end with. Escalate in matter of days if not hours.

You don't need to go 1 vs. 1 scenario. I am saying since many days that Pakistan will have to acquire high-supersonic or hypersonic speed cruise missile with range of 1000+ KM and strike PRE-EMPTIVELY to take out as many Indian missile storage sites as possible in first couple of hours of conflict. Other than that, any strategy will make it difficult. Increasing AD nodes and waiting enemy to run out of missiles is a dangerous strategy as Brahmos is Made in India and India is setting up more and more factories to manufacture it like one came up in Lucknow on 14-15 May 2025. In Indian state of UP they are building defence industrial corridor where India's local vendors are going to invest in 5 cities. Lucknow, Agra, Chittarkani, Jhansi, and one more. If we don't have capabilities to hit these location, our jawans and officers will have to pay heavy price in battlefield. It is as simple as it is.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

I don't think you have the right idea. If you're up against countries like Western Europe, they'll avoid destroying each other with their missiles because they're concerned about casualties. But you are up against India, the only country in the world that provides human experimenters to multinational drug companies, a country that has a very poor hunger index but is a major global exporter of food. Do you think the Indian government cares about Indian civilian casualties? You need HQ19 to protect vital institutions, as Israel does, and that's the only way.

I got your point. Let me explain mine; Offense is the Best Defence!

 

[PakShaheen_79]

No I think more J10CE

we keep upgrading the JF17 program

and then we go for J-35

I dont think J16 has a role in Pakistan

Sir, it certainly has a role in Pakistan. Why we always emphasis on Pakistan's size while choosing platforms. Why not emphasize on the size of our adversary? We need to hit Indian targets deep inside during war, right? Now, don't you think a platform in category of J-16/F-15 is required? How deep J-10C can penetrate? Plus, a fighter like J-16 can carry very specific types of A2G weapons which J-10C due to its size simply can't carry. Air superiority we can achieve with JF-17Block IIIs and J-10Cs but STRIKE is our weak link as proven during recent clashes. Either get something like J-16 or Su-35 or get a cruise missile that can penetrate deep inside Indian air space.

 

[Harbyharb]

The J-16 can use PL-17, which has a range of 500km, to kill Indian AWACS aircraft.

I don’t think there’s any hard physical limitation for existing Pakistani airframes to carry the PL-17, there are A2G ordnance that’s larger and heavier that’s seen on JF-17 and J-10C before. Aside from potential issues with JF-17’s climb rate to deploy the PL-17 at ideal altitudes in short notice, the issue isn’t in the physical realm I don’t think.

And honestly I do not think PL-17 would be necessary. Over decades of aggressive aerial posture and need for high sortie rate for ground support, most Indian air bases are positioned very closed to the boarder and points of contact (most of them 200km from Pakistani territory), which means most Indian tactical jet sorties wouldn’t be difficult to detect, track, and engaged with existing arsenal of PL-15s. And as recent conflict have demonstrated, Indian AWACS don’t play nearly as big of a role as Pakistani AWACS do for their aerial operations.

 

[hydrabadi_arab]

You don't need to go 1 vs. 1 scenario. I am saying since many days that Pakistan will have to acquire high-supersonic or hypersonic speed cruise missile with range of 1000+ KM and strike PRE-EMPTIVELY to take out as many Indian missile storage sites as possible in first couple of hours of conflict. Other than that, any strategy will make it difficult. Increasing AD nodes and waiting enemy to run out of missiles is a dangerous strategy as Brahmos is Made in India and India is setting up more and more factories to manufacture it like one came up in Lucknow on 14-15 May 2025. In Indian state of UP they are building defence industrial corridor where India's local vendors are going to invest in 5 cities. Lucknow, Agra, Chittarkani, Jhansi, and one more. If we don't have capabilities to hit these location, our jawans and officers will have to pay heavy price in battlefield. It is as simple as it is.

I agree with you. Pakistan need similar or better missiles then brahmos. Number of missiles shouldn't matter as conflict will not last long before MAD kick in and India ask for ceasefire again to USA.

 

[Ali_Baba]

I don’t think there’s any hard physical limitation for existing Pakistani airframes to carry the PL-17, there are A2G ordnance that’s larger and heavier that’s seen on JF-17 and J-10C before. Aside from potential issues with JF-17’s climb rate to deploy the PL-17 at ideal altitudes in short notice, the issue isn’t in the physical realm I don’t think.

If China were to offer the PL-17, it would be useful to keep at bay, Indias AEW&C and refuelling platforms. A couple of dozen like the CM-400AKGs as a silver bullet capability.

 

[Harbyharb]

Sir, it certainly has a role in Pakistan. Why we always emphasis on Pakistan's size while choosing platforms. Why not emphasize on the size of our adversary? We need to hit Indian targets deep inside during war, right? Now, don't you think a platform in category of J-16/F-15 is required? How deep J-10C can penetrate? Plus, a fighter like J-16 can carry very specific types of A2G weapons which J-10C due to its size simply can't carry. Air superiority we can achieve with JF-17Block IIIs and J-10Cs but STRIKE is our weak link as proven during recent clashes. Either get something like J-16 or Su-35 or get a cruise missile that can penetrate deep inside Indian air space.

The idea of using a heavy twin engine platform of deep strikes against Indian heartlands is a valid concept, but given Pakistan’s, to put it mildly, miserable economic situation, I would say instead of expensive aerial platforms firing high value munitions, Pakistan should resort to more asymmetrical means, specifically long range kamikaze drones like the Shahed-136.

Given India’s heavy reliance on foreign munitions and components for air defence systems and a traditional lack of inventory depth, I’d say a large fleet of cheap and expendable drones would be a much greater deterrence as it would constrain India’s resources aside from inflicting damage, without breaking Pakistan’s bank in the process.

If China were to offer the PL-17, it would be useful to keep at bay, Indias AEW&C and refuelling platforms. A couple of dozen like the CM-400AKGs as a silver bullet capability.

Unlike PL-15 and CM-400AKGs, PL-17s have yet to make much public appearances left alone being offered for export. That and, from I learned from open source and speculation, to make the most out of PL-17’s performance would require more than support of friendly aerial assets like AEW and ELINT, but also satellites and other space assets, which means a current NATO-Ukraine style intel sharing that China may have irks about given their traditional pledge for a non-interventionist, non-involvement policy (openly at least)

That and new inventory is expensive. I don’t see the PL-17 being urgently needed for the foreseeable future

 

[PakShaheen_79]

The idea of using a heavy twin engine platform of deep strikes against Indian heartlands is a valid concept, but given Pakistan’s, to put it mildly, miserable economic situation, I would say instead of expensive aerial platforms firing high value munitions, Pakistan should resort to more asymmetrical means, specifically long range kamikaze drones like the Shahed-136.

Given India’s heavy reliance on foreign munitions and components for air defence systems and a traditional lack of inventory depth, I’d say a large fleet of cheap and expendable drones would be a much greater deterrence as it would constrain India’s resources aside from inflicting damage, without breaking Pakistan’s bank in the process.

Unlike PL-15 and CM-400AKGs, PL-17s have yet to make much public appearances left alone being offered for export. That and, from I learned from open source and speculation, to make the most out of PL-17’s performance would require more than support of friendly aerial assets like AEW and ELINT, but also satellites and other space assets, which means a current NATO-Ukraine style intel sharing that China may have irks about given their traditional pledge for a non-interventionist, non-involvement policy (openly at least)

That and new inventory is expensive. I don’t see the PL-17 being urgently needed for the foreseeable future

Range is only one consideration. Shahed-136 swarm may successful against isolated battlefield targets but against well defended high value assets, we also require heavy warheads and high-supersonic speed if not hypersonic. All these parameters are critical. Range, Speed, Payload. Principally, I agree that we need long range loitering munition and Pakistan is already working on some homegrown systems in this regard. But they also have same problem. For example, See this project "Sarfarosh" .. it is 1000 KM range kamakaze drone but it carries only 20-25KG warhead. Range is there but not the punch that can penetrate in hardened targets. LM shines in open battlefields. Shahe-136 carries 50KG warhead and it travels at 185 KM/hr speed. Now tell me how difficult it would be to track and destroy it for Indian IADS?

 

[Harbyharb]

. Shahe-136 carries 50KG warhead and it travels at 185 KM/hr speed. Now tell me how difficult it would be to track and destroy it for Indian IADS?

Not at all, but that is the point. If you read my original post more carefully, my point was what Pakistan got, cruise missiles like RAAD, ALBM like CM400AKG, long range MLRS are about what pakistan can afford and what Pakistan can expect to get in the foreseeable future.

Shahed drones, even when intercepted, would have effectively dealt a blow to India, as they likely have to waste a much more expensive ordnance that they cannot replace within reasonable time and effort. And if left unchecked, 20-50kg warheads is enough to damage a lot of civilian infrastructure like refineries, transformer stations, factory floors, greatly diminishing India’s civil and economic stability and this ability to wage a prolonged war.

 

[KingQamaR]

J-10C’s AESA radar has LPI capability so if Rafale has no capable counter measure, J-10C can keep guiding the missile until the missiles active seeker turns on, without help from those AWACS planes.

 

[RafaleSlayer]

PL15 has done its job, its already obsolete now, next time there will be a new variant