Desprado123
Registered Member
But 36 is confirmed number for J 10C?
JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion
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Michael
VIP Member
The exact info on PAF's last purchase order was for 20 J-10CE. (12 standard painted J-10CE + 8 camouflage painted J-10CE)
Not 36, and not J-10C.
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Ali_Baba
VIP Member
4.5 Gen platforms will remain relevant in South Asia for a long time to come. India has right now no pathway to a 5th gen except for possibly AMCA if they can pull that off. As to whether India will go down the F35 or GCAP or FCAS route is unknown.
Pakistan has the choice of both J35A and Kaan.
PAF cannot afford a pure stealth fleet, nor can India. So, the JF17C will remain relevant militarily for a long time to come in the South Asian context, so having that infrastructure setup makes sense given how it can be used for other projects in the future too.
FOOLS_NIGHTMARE
Elite Member
Dreamer
Registered Member
Which documents are you referring to? I've never heard of any limit on number of JF-17.
What does "Sino-Brazilian" mean? Brazil has nothing to do with JF-17.
Whoever sells weapons to Pakistan, gets great advertisement. Because PAF uses them to the best capabilities.
Michael
VIP Member
There are a total of two open Chinese-Pakistani agreements on the JF-17.
The first agreement is on the joint Chinese-Pakistani development of the FC-1 (JF-17). This is a joint development agreement. The agreement explicitly agrees that the intellectual property rights of the FC-1 (JF-17) will be shared 50 percent each by China-Pakistan.
The second agreement was on the China-Pakistan joint production of the JF-17. This is a joint production agreement. In this agreement it is agreed that both sides will jointly produce 200 JF-17s.
Sorry, it was a translation error. I forgot to check it carefully.
In the Chinese context:
China-Pakistan, it's shortened to “中巴”.
China-Brazil, it's shortened to “中巴”.
China - Bahrain, it's shortened to “中巴”.
China - Papua New Guinea, it's shortened to “中巴”.
......
They all have the same Chinese abbreviation ......
I don't speak English. All my statements in PDF are written in Chinese first and then translated with translation software. They sometimes translate “中巴” as China-Brazil.
Sino is another old English translation of China.
You need to know more about some basic political common sense and basic international rules. Including the basic logic of the international arms trade.
You seem to have misunderstood me.
By “terminating the JF-17 program” I mean stopping its continued upgrading and development, not stopping its production.
There is no doubt that the JF-17 is the most advanced 4.5th-Gen light fighter in the world today. There is no other fighter in its class that can match it. PAC should produce more JF-17B3 for PAF to replace PAF's large number of aging fighters. And, of course, market the JF-17B3 to the rest of the world.
However, the JF-17B3 is already at its peak. We have completely milked this platform for all it's worth. If Pakistan wants to continue developing and massively upgrading the JF-17B3, the road ahead of it has been completely blocked.
The current JF-17B3 is not fully balanced.
The existing avionics system of the JF-17B3 is not capable of operating at full power for a longer period of time due to the power generation capability of the RD-93. Of course, we can replace it with WS-21 engine which has more power generation capability. But this is just a basic conventional upgrade, and the only upgrade that can be done at the moment.
As for the other upgrades discussed in this forum, they hardly make any sense.
1. replace the WS-10B engine? How is that different from PAF's current J-10CE?
2, Stealth fighter? How is that different from the J-35 that PAF is about to procure?
3, Replacement of local Pakistani avionics or Turkish avionics? Is Pakistan capable of developing an independent avionics system? Also, you need to know the real capability of Turkish avionics first.
PL-10E, PL-15E and a host of other Chinese missiles and weapons will not be compatible with non-Chinese avionics systems. Giving up the Chinese avionics system means giving up all Chinese missiles and weapons. It also means you will be giving up Chinese systematic air combat capability altogether.
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Desprado123
Registered Member
I think 200 quota is now thrown out of the window as it not mentioned any where in official document or even stated officially by PAF about 200 unit limit. Why I say that? Because India MFRA will buy 114 jets and many all top jets manufacturers has submitted there proposal. Pakistan need non stop production on JF 17 Thunder.
Ali_Baba
VIP Member
PAF will have a follow on order for the JF17C-P and JF17C-PFX for sure, where parts of PFX may result in fleet wide upgrades if it is successful as a project. The numbers are unknown, but it wont be 'unlimited/non stop'. Do note, some of the earlier JF17s are approaching the end of their service lives as they were flown a lot to develop the capabilities and test tactics of how to utilise the platform.
So, Could I see a further 100 units for JF17C-P and JF17C-PFX to replace the earlier jets and capacity growth, yes I can and I think that will be the upper limit. PAF will be keen to move onwards to Kaan and J35A.
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Desprado123
Registered Member
If there is was a limit than Pakistan would not be exporting these to several countries and reducing there own desired quota.
Ali_Baba
VIP Member
Yes - but exports are a different conversation.
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Michael
VIP Member
Before the China-Pakistan joint production agreement was signed, the PLAAF had completely abandoned the procurement of the FC-1.
Pakistan was therefore concerned and they proposed that the agreement include the production of at least 200 JF-17s. i.e., China must ensure support (core components, subsystems) for these 200 JF-17s. They are concerned that China may interrupt the supply of relevant parts and subsystems to PAC at any time.
Without PLAAF order support, it would mean a very small number of JF-17s would be produced. And chinese factories have a greater cost loss of retaining the JF-17's specialized production equipment and tooling. Without contractual constraints, they might have abandoned them very early on. If they drop them, it also means they will no longer produce the parts and subsystems involved for the JF-17.
It would be like if you had 100,000 custom bottles of Coca-Cola made at the Coca-Cola plant with your headshot on it. But you ask for those 100,000 bottles of Coca-Cola to be produced and delivered over 20 years. This means that the Coca-Cola factory must keep the molds for 20 years. This is a huge loss for them.
The 200 JF-17s in this agreement are actually a self-protection measure for Pakistan. For China, it is burdensome. So, CAC desperately wants PAC to localize 100% production of complete airframes.
Desprado123
Registered Member
I cannot see or find the agreement anywhere. Can show the official agreement?
Michael
VIP Member
This one has a somewhat long history.
In the early years, there was information on Chinese military forums. Now, these military forums have all been closed. It is very difficult to find this original information.
I can try to look for them, but not sure I can still find them.
Note that the Chinese government never publishes such documents. All original documents are from Pakistan.
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