Los Angeles Clashes between ICE and demonstrators, Trump sends in the National Guard.

[AZ_HighCountry]

Been in the US practically my whole life. Yeah the failure to address issues also irritates me as well. But on the right we also had a lot of theater. Clinton left Bush with a budget surplus and record low debt. Then Bush made a mess of the Afghan war, launched a needless war in Iraq, and let the banks run wild, with the 2007-2008 Great Recession to end out his time in office. Both parties have really screwed the country, especially for the past 25 years.

I have often pondered if we need a second civil war to finally straighten this thing out once and for all.

 

[FuturePAF]

I have a theory on that. The reason is constant immigration.

When you look at kids in school, they are fully integrated. There is almost no racism among them. But when they grow up, people separate into ethnicities.

The reason is the constant flow of new immigrants from the old country. These older immigrants rejuvenate old prejudices and poison young people in their community.



This history is well documented, especially in the Conquistador conquest of South America.

Maybe it’s because I didn’t grow up in a “Desi” neighborhood, and every house on my block is made up of families from different national origins, that I find it normal to blend in, while still holding onto the core of my familial origins and my religion. As a kid I led my school in the pledge of allegiance, with the morning announcements.

We had mass immigration back in the 70s and 80s when my family came, from our lower middle class background, but we had English assimilation classes, that even my grandma took and effort to learn, even though she had no interest to deal with people outside the home. I empathize with the hardworking immigrants, even the illegals, that keep their heads down and stay humble to the country that have them the opportunities. Outside of a couple of Melas or a Pakistan day parades in my youth, I’ve never publicly displayed the Pakistani flag in the US. I was very interested in history in elementary school, and learned that other ethnicities from Europe in the early 1900s taught their kids to assimilate, master English, and learn how to be American and took that to heart. School was our lives, but with 9/11 we were othered, and even though we had done nothing wrong, it was a rough decade or so feeling othered. So we know, even when you do everything by the book, society takes a long time to accept you, mostly.

 

[SolarWarden]

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Time for some airstrikes on cartels and let chaos run amuck in mex let's see how long she'll still want to be president.

 

[AZ_HighCountry]

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Time for some airstrikes on cartels and let chaos run amuck in mex let's see how long she'll still want to be president.

Because her country depends on those remittances. She knows there are a lot of her people living illegally on this side of the border. Maybe she should focus her energies on cleaning up that craphole and getting some stability so those people want to go home.

 

[Developereo]

Maybe it’s because I didn’t grow up in a “Desi” neighborhood, and every house on my block is made up of families from different national origins, that I find it normal to blend in, while still holding onto the core of my familial origins and my religion. As a kid I led my school in the pledge of allegiance, with the morning announcements.

We had mass immigration back in the 70s and 80s when my family came, from our lower middle class background, but we had English assimilation classes, that even my grandma took and effort to learn, even though she had no interest to deal with people outside the home. I empathize with the hardworking immigrants, even the illegals, that keep their heads down and stay humble to the country that have them the opportunities. Outside of a couple of Melas or a Pakistan day parades in my youth, I’ve never publicly displayed the Pakistani flag in the US.

I was making a general statement about why American society is becoming so divided. Racial tensions have always been there; they just subside when times are good and resurface when the economy worsens.

As for hard working illegals, it is irrelevant how hard they work. They are illegal; they broke the country's laws. There are hundreds of millions of people around the world who will work twice as hard as these 'hard working ilegals'. Should we drop all immigration laws and let them in the country?

What is the responsibility of the American government? the state government? local government? It is to accomodate hundreds of millions of 'hard working' people around the world or to look after the welfare of their voters?

Bottom line, either a country has laws and it respects them and it enforces them, or the whole thing is a charade.

 

[FuturePAF]

I was making a general statement about why American society is becoming so divided. Racial tensions have always been there; they just subside when times are good and resurface when the economy worsens.

As for hard working illegals, it is irrelevant how hard they work. They are illegal; they broke the country's laws. There are hundreds of millions of people around the world who will work twice as hard as these 'hard working ilegals'. Should we drop all immigration laws and let them in the country?

Bottom line, either a country has laws and it respects them and it enforces them, or the whole thing is a charade.

No we shouldn’t break or bend the laws for them, but do it in a humane and predictable manner. Just like many wanted to have been done to the Afghans in Pakistan.

The political football the immigration issue has become has itself made the process a charade, and both parities are guilty of using it for political purposes. Obama deported more people per annum than most other presidents, but he was quiet and probably more methodical about it; no major alienation of the public.

What would be the predictable and humane way to deport millions who have been here for decades? People whose crime has only been the illegal entry. I’m not asking rhetorically. It’s a genuine question, as every member of my family too, waited and went through the legal process to get here.

 

[Developereo]

No we shouldn’t break or bend the laws for them, but do it in a humane and predictable manner. Just like many wanted to have been done to the Afghans in Pakistan.

I agree that every person should have their day in court and not be deported without due process.

Obama deported more people per annum than most other presidents, but he was quiet and probably more methodical about it; no major alienation of the public.

Deporting people is only one side of the equation. You also need to crack down on people and incentives that reward illegal migration in the first place, otherwise the deportations are just a cynical charade for political point scoring.

This is where the rift comes between MAGA and traditional Republicans. The latter group benefits from the cheap labor of illegal. migration. It will be interesting how Trump juggles this delicate bifurcation in his supporters' ranks.

 

[FuturePAF]

I agree that every person should have their day in court and not be deported without due process.



Deporting people is only one side of the equation. You also need to crack down on people and incentives that reward illegal migration in the first place, otherwise the deportations are just a cynical charade for political point scoring.

Trump started by reinforcing the border, but the incentives to self deport aren’t there. Regardless of how hard many make the life for the illegal immigrants. Their countries of origin, many of them are wrecked. For example, Haiti, is the poorest country in the western hemisphere and over run with murderous gangs. Why would anyone in their right mind want to go back to that. We have to help these countries stabilize to make it worth it for people to go back. Look at Syria. Now Europe can make a genuine case for reparations.

 

[Developereo]

Trump started by reinforcing the border, but the incentives to self deport aren’t there. Regardless of how hard many make the life for the illegal immigrants. Their countries of origin, many of them are wrecked. For example, Haiti, is the poorest country in the western hemisphere and over run with murderous gangs. Why would anyone in their right mind want to go back to that. We have to help these countries stabilize to make it worth it for people to go back. Look at Syria. Now Europe can make a genuine case for reparations.

This deviates from the thread a bit but I strongly disagree with that concept also. Most of these countries are basket cases because of local corruption and incompetence. Any money sent to them will be swallowed up by the corrupt elite.

When did it become the American taxpayer's responsibility to fix corruption around the world?

 

[Davey Crockett]

I have often pondered if we need a second civil war to finally straighten this thing out once and for all.

Civil War 2 : Thomas Chittum : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

A book that goes into what might happen in a hypothetical civil war 2 in the U.S, and what might cause such a war.

archive.org

 

[SolarWarden]

This deviates from the thread a bit but I strongly disagree with that concept also. Most of these countries are basket cases because of local corruption and incompetence. Any money sent to them will be swallowed up by the corrupt elite.

When did it become the American taxpayer's responsibility to fix corruption around the world?

Um... (clears throat) US has encourage corruption in many nations. Just saying.

 

[FuturePAF]

This deviates from the thread a bit but I strongly disagree with that concept also. Most of these countries are basket cases because of local corruption and incompetence. Any money sent to them will be swallowed up by the corrupt elite.

When did it become the American taxpayer's responsibility to fix corruption around the world?

America has to avoid being party to their corruption, propping up their corrupt elite, allow the illegals of those countries to be able to take down those elites themselves and having a country for them to be able to return to.

You were asking about incentives. Many of the incentives that would work would be house that would have to be applied to foreign governments not illegal immigrants.

 

[Developereo]

America has to avoid being party to their corruption, propping up their corrupt elite, allow the illegals of those countries to be able to take down those elites themselves and having a country for them to be able to return to.

I agree the whole matter is complicated by superpower politics moving pawns across the globe.

You were asking about incentives. Many of the incentives that would work would be house that would have to be applied to foreign governments not illegal immigrants.

Any money the US government could give these countries would be nothing compared to the remittances their people send back from the US. And how long do you have to keep bribing these governments? What happens when the bribes stop? Does the flood start again?

To quote a line from Dirty Harry, "[We do] not pay criminals not to commit crimes. Instead, we pay a police department".

Let's also remember that demographic voting trends are a factor in encouraging (illegal) migration from certain demographics.

 

[Yommie]

So what's happening? Is there a battle in LA yet?

 

[FuturePAF]

I agree the whole matter is complicated by superpower politics moving pawns across the globe.



Any money the US government could give these countries would be nothing compared to the remittances their people send back from the US.

I’m talking about freezing the assets and travel of these corrupt elites (in conjunction with most western countries) from these countries until they use that money to make their own countries livable again.