JF-17 - Updates, News & Discussion

[Pakistanithinktank]

Can the J-16 be sold? What agencies need approval to sell it? ------ This is totally beside the point. These problems can be completely avoided by adopting appropriate political or technical means.

The core of this issue is money.

According to relevant news from Chinese media:
J-16 standard version: about RMB 650 million / J-16D: about RMB 800 million. The cost of J-20 is about RMB 700 million. This is the cost price that was exposed a long time ago.
1. At that time, the exchange rate of USD-RMB was around 6.5.
2. Since the J-16 series and J-20 series fighters are the main fighters of the PLAAF, relevant Chinese scientific research institutions and the PLAAF are constantly upgrading these fighters. Their current costs are higher than these figures.

If the PAF were to buy the J-16 now (ignoring political factors), the combined price would be around $200-250 million, including spare engines, weapon systems, maintenance parts, training, after-sales services, etc. However, we estimate that the combined price of the FC-31/J-35 (full package) is around $150-200 million. (Although both the J-10CE and J-16 use the WS-10B engine, they are not universal and there are certain differences between them.)

The daily maintenance costs of these heavy fighters are also surprisingly high.

As explained already, not worth it. Pakistan will never go for it.

 

[Reichmarshal]

can always lease acouple of sqd

 

[Be dazzled]

Per the agreement China cannot sell any of the license manufactured variants of Flanker family even the j15 that is based on Ukrainian 33 as the basic design is the IP of Sukhoi / UAM.

 

[RajaBaja]

He has a valid point and it is one that I make but with a caveat. The issue isn’t just economic failure in Pakistan that limits the effectiveness of defense but it limits continued warfare because the economy and strategic reserves wont keep not just the military but also the people going beyond a certain timeframe.

That is a very valid point. This is the same point that Indian military establishment has banked on for decades. But its now invalidated with the 5 day war. Indian strategists recognize it also. With China backing, essentially, Pakistan can fight a war as long as it needs to. The supply chain of weapons isn't an issue. A long term conflict will damage Indian economy a LOT more than Pakistan.

China will not allow a situation where the territorial integrity of Pakistan could be impacted. Similar to what they did in Iran. Meaning, eventually, with India, its a stalemate.

Having said this, Pakistan must build a stronger airforce, mass produce a local version of some SAM system (like FAAZ) and have drones and Hypersonic weapons for 2025's warfare needs.

 

[RajaBaja]

If Trump decides kiss Asim Munir on his forehead and offer F-16V Block 70s, I would say that would be a phenomenal deal right there for Pakistan and a big force multiplier for PAF because F-16 with its advance blocks is still a very capable fighter in the world.

Trump offered F-35's for some long term work against Iran.......like a regime change. They said no, sorry and thank you to their face, citing that after each long term US operation, there is public backlash AND increased destabilization in Pakistan and it has taken over 150 billion dollars and 80,000 lives. So the other side understands.

IMO, time for F-16's has passed. May be one more upgrade by Turkey should be done. But our future is with JF-17 BIII, J-10C, J-35 and KAAN / local 5th gen.

 

[Bentley777]

The J-16 lacks stealth capabilities, making it vulnerable to detection by advanced air defense systems like the S-400, raising concerns about its survivability in modern high threat environments. Its twin-engine configuration also results in significantly higher maintenance and operational costs compared to the more efficient single-engine J-10C. While the J-16 is a capable platform in its own right, it doesn’t align optimally with Pakistan’s current strategic and budgetary needs. At this stage, expanding the J-10C fleet remains a more practical choice until the stealth capable J-35A becomes available for procurement.



Pakistan should focus on upgrading its F-16s to the Turkish variant instead of the F-16V, as pro-Israeli and pro-Indian influence in Congress could derail the deal.

Where stealth came from brother procurement of j16E will be totally for standoff missiles its not the replacement of j35. F16v is worst choice we can make that role j10 is already doing magnificently. Its serves no purpose secondly if IAF gets f35 both will be on link 16.... And if we get kj500 no compatibility.and also which missiles usa gives with f16v is another debate. In the end they will also say aim120-d is for counter terrorism operations e.g.

 

[Bentley777]

Can the J-16 be sold? What agencies need approval to sell it? ------ This is totally beside the point. These problems can be completely avoided by adopting appropriate political or technical means.

The core of this issue is money.

According to relevant news from Chinese media:
J-16 standard version: about RMB 650 million / J-16D: about RMB 800 million. The cost of J-20 is about RMB 700 million. This is the cost price that was exposed a long time ago.
1. At that time, the exchange rate of USD-RMB was around 6.5.
2. Since the J-16 series and J-20 series fighters are the main fighters of the PLAAF, relevant Chinese scientific research institutions and the PLAAF are constantly upgrading these fighters. Their current costs are higher than these figures.

If the PAF were to buy the J-16 now (ignoring political factors), the combined price would be around $200-250 million, including spare engines, weapon systems, maintenance parts, training, after-sales services, etc. However, we estimate that the combined price of the FC-31/J-35 (full package) is around $150-200 million. (Although both the J-10CE and J-16 use the WS-10B engine, they are not universal and there are certain differences between them.)

The daily maintenance costs of these heavy fighters are also surprisingly high.

All above points are valid but if i was incharge i would go for j16E subject to being possible because PAF has only has old mirages for that. All f16 jf17 j10 are for air superiority they can't carry like 4 ALCM in one sortie for e.g

 

[Hassan_716]

All above points are valid but if i was incharge i would go for j16E subject to being possible because PAF has only has old mirages for that. All f16 jf17 j10 are for air superiority they can't carry like 4 ALCM in one sortie for e.g

so in our case its only mirages that carry ALCMs?

 

[Rational Philosopher]

so in our case its only mirages that carry ALCMs?

No, all of our fighters can carry them.

The reason why he is proposing the J-16 is because it's a larger heavy weight platform, so in one sortie it can carry and launch a lot more missiles and bombs. This is why colloquially they call it a "bomb truck" or "missile truck"

JF-17:

Number of hardpoints: 7
Total payload: 3,600kg

J-16

Number of hardpoints: 12
Total payload: 8,000kg

 

[Be dazzled]

so in our case its only mirages that carry ALCMs?

Thunders can carry Read and Taimoor Alcm. It's well known.

 

[Bentley777]

so in our case its only mirages that carry ALCMs?

As far as dedicated offensive role is concerned absolutely. They are trying block 2 for it but it has limitations its a lightweight category jet.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

This thread is turning into children's wishlist. Please stick to Jeffs discussions.

J-16: Too damn expensive. Not even for export. Its probably as expensive as J-20. Also too expensive to maintain. Certainly out of budget for PAF. The dual engine 5th gen will come in time, every last penny will go towards it. No need to fantasize every platform for PAF.

F-16V: Really? Not again FFS!. PAF hosts American monitoring team 24/7 for its block52s. We pay for those contractors too. You want that kinda surveillance continued for your future airforce? Plus its also very expensive and comes with too many strings attached (even if approved). They won't sell AIM120-D anyways, so it will be toothless in today's era of long range BVRs. Plus you already shot down one of west's best aircrafts with pl-15s. You already have decided on your platforms JF-17 BIIIs, J-10Cs, J-35 (dual engine / 5th gen). They are PERFECT for PAF. Commonality, same logistical chain, same weapon systems, huge benefits. Nothing else is needed. There is no money for anything else too.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

All above points are valid but if i was incharge i would go for j16E subject to being possible because PAF has only has old mirages for that. All f16 jf17 j10 are for air superiority they can't carry like 4 ALCM in one sortie for e.g

Mirages also cannot carry 4 ALCMs. JF-17s do carry Taimur, C802s cruise missiles, they also carry CM401AKG. 2 SOW / CMs in a single sortie which is more than enough. I have not seen even flankers carry 4 ALCMs. Even if their payload allows, you really don't want such load in a single platform. What if it get's destroyed / crashed before releasing any. Aircraft + all 4 expensive missiles wasted before even put to use.

 

[PakShaheen_79]

JF-17 needs to evolve that's all. PAF can't escape from it. Saying PAF might be done with JF-17 is easier but reality is that we have around 200 of these in service. What to do with them then? Retire them all? Not possible. PFX makes perfect sense when we analyse Pakistan specific requirements from Thunder. May be PAF is trying to do with it what Lockheed Martin did to General Dynamics's F-16 light weight fighter whose sole purpose at that time back in Mid-70s was to win dog fights only. PAF needs a reliable strike platform. Chinese Flankers have many issues from political to financial. Even we ignore financial issues for a min, Russia will never allow China to resell even J-16s which are though very different from Russian SU-27s or own J-11s but still are based on same design though I have seen a PAF PR video where camera focused on a J-16 model laying in PAF's MDHQ. Now the issue is China solved its strike option with Russian flankers and their local variants. PAF who has relied on China always left wanting as China can't replicate that capability to Pakistan. J-10Cs can't offer similar weapon choice J-11 or J-16 can. It is physics. Size does matter. Best PAF can do in this regard is to get from China its JH-7A/A2s or an upgraded version of that but this aircraft is OLD in its design philosophy. Dilemma is real. PLAAF is going to replace them all with J-16 so PAF can still look for these as they might be available at very affordable prices. They offer some really interesting strike options.



So, I believe PAF must study a possibility of Twin engine Thunder for strike role. I know it sounds very ambitious or outright stupid but you need to start from somewhere. A platform that can launched ALCM even smaller ALBM. Even if we get F-16 Block 72 kits by some magical deal, remember US will not release all the strike weapons for it. We will be relying on JDAMs at max. OR we can take Iranian route and develop BMs for strike missions. OR we can bump up the numbers of Sea Sultan platform and use them for deep strike role to overcome India's massive strategic depth. Chinese have adopted a similar solution with their H-6s. A specific variant can carry up to 4 ALCMs with ranges more than 1500-2000 KM.

Bottom line is that Thunder is a multi-role and even in PFX incarnation it will remain so! PAF's deep strike requirements demands a new platform.

 

[Bentley777]

Mirages also cannot carry 4 ALCMs. JF-17s do carry Taimur, C802s cruise missiles, they also carry CM401AKG. 2 SOW / CMs in a single sortie which is more than enough. I have not seen even flankers carry 4 ALCMs. Even if their payload allows, you really don't want such load in a single platform. What if it get's destroyed / crashed before releasing any. Aircraft + all 4 expensive missiles wasted before even put to use.

That's now its works that single jet carrying 4 missile will be wasted if shot down by that logic what if jet get shot down its more expensive than missiles. It will be in the strike package all together protected by all other assets in synergy. Taimur and raad is not for Coventional role.