Z-10 ME/P deliveries Updates: Pakistan Army Aviation.

[TopGun786]

US attitude to Pak has completely changed on last 3 months

Could be a temporary thing...

 

[Great Mal]

I think the current version of the Z10ME does seem been adopted by Pakistani Army . It seems that Pakistanis Army/ PAF wants an attack helicopter that can perform well in the high altitude battlefield of Kashmir and on Afghan / Baluchistan hot spots ? If Pakistani Army really wanted the Turkey T129 ? But the engines are American and the US WILL deny export permission to Pakistani surely Pakistanis are not this stupid or blind to this real fact . I have serious doubts Z10ME can be operated like the US APACHE a deep strike platform! Obviously Apache can not penetrate deep into defended Pakistani airspace something's Pakistanis Military need to bolster more .

People on Pakistan defense forum do not realise that helicopters are basically tanks in the air for armoured columns & with the advancement of technology especially in miniaturised radars & rocket motors.

Helicopters will be further enhanced they aren't going anywhere for a good 3 decades.

This is the reason India has around 150 light attack helicopters on order & further Apaches too.

People saying PAF will make short work of Indian helicopters do not realise that war is a two way street.

Pakistan needs helicopters especially for high altitude warfare since India will have 100 plus in its inventory in the next 2 decades.

 

[Ali_Baba]

As Indian Apache is a heavy attack helicopter and Z-10 is a light attack helicopter gunship hence the worrying difference in firepower for PAF . The Z-10 is more comparable with American Cobra/ Viper. PAF should be really go for the China new Z-21 Heavy Attack Helicopter. A real rival to the American AH-64 Apache?

Now that the WZ-10 is in Pakistan, I think Pakistan will feel confident enough to wait to see when the T629(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_T629) will mature and if that is a viable option in leui of the original T129 that was cancelled due to engine sanctions issues

 

[Yasser76]

People on Pakistan defense forum do not realise that helicopters are basically tanks in the air for armoured columns & with the advancement of technology especially in miniaturised radars & rocket motors.

Helicopters will be further enhanced they aren't going anywhere for a good 3 decades.

This is the reason India has around 150 light attack helicopters on order & further Apaches too.

People saying PAF will make short work of Indian helicopters do not realise that war is a two way street.

Pakistan needs helicopters especially for high altitude warfare since India will have 100 plus in its inventory in the next 2 decades.

Calm down, no one is being dismissive and i now you hold India in great esteem, but simple fact is if you keep IAF at arms length, then Helicopters are sitting ducks.

Yes, it does, in theory, work both ways, but PAF will not wait to fight fairly.

Apaches will have to face PAF fights, Air defences, Pak Army SHORAD/SAMs

In last 3 rounds choppers played no role, in Indian service these things are just prestige. IAF got some so IA ordered 6.

 

[KingQamaR]

Calm down, no one is being dismissive and i now you hold India in great esteem, but simple fact is if you keep IAF at arms length, then Helicopters are sitting ducks.

Yes, it does, in theory, work both ways, but PAF will not wait to fight fairly.

Apaches will have to face PAF fights, Air defences, Pak Army SHORAD/SAMs

In last 3 rounds choppers played no role, in Indian service these things are just prestige. IAF got some so IA ordered 6.

In this age when every western platoon I hope Pakistani soldiers too has a MANIPAD helicopters are reduced to just sniper warfare? Some military say they are far less relevant than they were two decades ago? Russia and Ukraine war shown helicopters minor roles in combat operations due to heavy air defences.

 

[Ak01]

In this age when every western platoon I hope Pakistani soldiers too has a MANIPAD helicopters are reduced to just sniper warfare? Some military say they are far less relevant than they were two decades ago? Russia and Ukraine war shown helicopters minor roles in combat operations due to heavy air defences.

just saying not every lesson from russia ukr is a lesson learnt for us.

 

[KingQamaR]

just saying not every lesson from russia ukr is a lesson learnt for us.

Who would have thought in an age of inexpensive drones or widespread MANIPADS has changed warfare I don’t think Pakistani military unfortunately will never ever get this I can’t imagine watching Ukrainian and Russian soldiers being hunted down by drones. Pakistani military must learn from Russia and Ukrainian battles?

 

[Waz]

Indian army has a clear cut plan for its light attack helicopter role they will procure & have on order already their indigenous light attack helicopter.

They will be used in high altitude & plains of Punjab & Rajasthan.

The American Apache is their heavy attack helicopter.

Whilst Pakistan army will likely cap its orders of the Chinese helicopter at 40. Which is a light attack helicopter.

For heavy attack helicopter Pakistan has no plans yet.


So basically going by current trajectory India will have Pakistan beat in the attack helicopter procurement and numbers both in lethality & sheer numbers.

I spoke to a number of Apache pilots both US and British at RIAT over the years. I asked them would the Apache be effective in a war between well armed adversaries like Pakistan and India, they said similar things on the lines of you would have to be crazy to fly one near the battlefield with the amount of air to air missiles, air defense missiles, portable missiles going up.
They said they are great when air superiority is established or for anti insurgency, otherwise you have a missile slamming into your cockpit fast. They are very vulnerable.

 

[Great Mal]

I spoke to a number of Apache pilots both US and British at RIAT over the years. I asked them would the Apache be effective in a war between well armed adversaries like Pakistan and India, they said similar things on the lines of you would have to be crazy to fly one near the battlefield with the amount of air to air missiles, air defense missiles, portable missiles going up.
They said they are great when air superiority is established or for anti insurgency, otherwise you have a missile slamming into your cockpit fast. They are very vulnerable.

That's why they are part of the combined arms warfare and do not venture far into enemy territory unless you have total command of the enemy air space.

Again, helicopters in the Pakistan- India scenario are just tanks in the air which complement the armoured thrusts.

Helicopters will play a crucial role in higher altitude where valleys & high terrain play benefit to the role of a quick moving heavily armed air machine.


Its the same cope some people come up with against Tanks.

 

[Waz]

That's why they are part of the combined arms warfare and do not venture far into enemy territory unless you have total command of the enemy air space.

Again, helicopters in the Pakistan- India scenario are just tanks in the air which complement the armoured thrusts.

Helicopters will play a crucial role in higher altitude where valleys & high terrain play benefit to the role of a quick moving heavily armed air machine.


Its the same cope some people come up with against Tanks.

You're unlikely to get total command, aside in sectors. But then battlefields are very fluid, look at Ukraine and Russia and how few helicopters are used now.
Yes they do compliment armoured thrusts but this thinking was back in the 70's and 80's. Anti air hardware has advanced far quicker and helicopters regardless of their configuration are relatively easy to take down compared to other air assets.
I'd agree they have a role to play in valleys and mountains but it's risky, as again it's easier to hide anti-air among such an environment.
Tanks are not comparable due to their far numerous nature and it's easier to protect them with infantry and air power as they advance. Choppers have high signatures, are slow moving and don't have many options against missiles directed at them.

 

[Great Mal]

You're unlikely to get total command, aside in sectors. But then battlefields are very fluid, look at Ukraine and Russia and how few helicopters are used now.
Yes they do compliment armoured thrusts but this thinking was back in the 70's and 80's. Anti air hardware has advanced far quicker and helicopters regardless of their configuration are relatively easy to take down compared to other air assets.
I'd agree they have a role to play in valleys and mountains but it's risky, as again it's easier to hide anti-air among such an environment.
Tanks are not comparable due to their far numerous nature and it's easier to protect them with infantry and air power as they advance. Choppers have high signatures, are slow moving and don't have many options against missiles directed at them.

To make attack helicopters defunct you first need to flood the frontline with manpads & have a strong robust anti air defence network.

Ukraine was flooded before & after the russian invasion with tons of manpads & later the whole world sent its systems to help them protect their skies.

Keep in mind the first helicopters that did fall prey to manpads were mi-8s and transport helis.

Attack helicopters aren’t made for deep strikes anyway they move with armoured column that’s how they were envisioned.

If employed correctly especially with the new tech especially aesa top mast mounted radars & short range low altitude anti air missiles being intergrated onto helis

They will easily stay relevant for a good 3 decades even beyond.

UAVs & kamikaze drones aren’t a substitute for helicopters. Rather they go hand in hand.

 

[KingQamaR]

That's why they are part of the combined arms warfare and do not venture far into enemy territory unless you have total command of the enemy air space.

Again, helicopters in the Pakistan- India scenario are just tanks in the air which complement the armoured thrusts.

Helicopters will play a crucial role in higher altitude where valleys & high terrain play benefit to the role of a quick moving heavily armed air machine.


Its the same cope some people come up with against Tanks.

Helicopter gunships main purpose is a crewed loitering, ambush munitions delivery vehicle . Needs to hide, wait, observe, shoot and scoot, all without revealing itself, ever. It flies under radar , and hides behind terrain or below tree tops.. As they were designed to do against the threat of a huge Soviet Union Armour thrusts into western Germany. Helicopter flying in a mountain range. In other words if the Helicopter is close enough to fire off ATGMs they will be in full view of Infantry and their MANIPADS. Lessons from Afghanistan mountains vs American stingers how they successfully shot down Russian Mi-24 Heavy Attack Gunships flying in the Afghan mountains and valleys.

 

[CallSignMaverick]

To make attack helicopters defunct you first need to flood the frontline with manpads & have a strong robust anti air defence network.

Ukraine was flooded before & after the russian invasion with tons of manpads & later the whole world sent its systems to help them protect their skies.

Keep in mind the first helicopters that did fall prey to manpads were mi-8s and transport helis.

Attack helicopters aren’t made for deep strikes anyway they move with armoured column that’s how they were envisioned.

If employed correctly especially with the new tech especially aesa top mast mounted radars & short range low altitude anti air missiles being intergrated onto helis

They will easily stay relevant for a good 3 decades even beyond.

UAVs & kamikaze drones aren’t a substitute for helicopters. Rather they go hand in hand.

With NLoS missiles, attack helicopters can stay away from MANPADS range for anti-tank/strike operations. Pakistani Z-10 is coming with them, Indian armed Mi-17V5s have Spike NLOS integrated as well. Like jets, BVR combat is coming for them as well. But it's usage is depends on tactics and situations. And to not be totally dependent on attack helicopters, Indian Army has started acquiring tank destroyers/ATGM carriers like NAMIS/NAMICA.

 

[Blain2]

Yet only a few months back India bought 156 attack helicopters taking total in service and on order to 310 gunships with production capacity exceeding 30 units a year. Maybe author should pipe down on word-salading .

India operates a much denser and larger AD network. They rely on Patriots and Iron dome as SAMs while Arrow and David's sling as BMD. Rest of the work is done by USA/UK and others to defend them.

I think you overestimate everything as is the penchant on the Indian side generally.
156->310 in an age where $5K kamikaze drones are taking out attack helis sounds like 90s planning still prevailing.
On the AD issue, the less said the better.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

If Pakistan does go for a heavier attack helicopter it may consider the Turkish option to have access to both eastern and western

And, establish a local production line for attack and utility choppers.....