Z-10 ME/P deliveries Updates: Pakistan Army Aviation.

Harbyharb said:
Since a lot of members have brought up the ATAK-2, what is the status of the project anyway?

I only recall that 1 bare bones prototype that left the ground exactly once in 2023, and was never heard from again, and a brief search a moment ago tells me that the turks are shelving it to prioritize on their Blackhawk knockoff, promising they will go back to the ATAK-2 after 2028. I wouldn’t be surprised since they have another Kaan situation, as the ATAK-2 depended on engines from Ukrainian firm Motor Sich, which practically no longer exists by now, which means no matter what, Pakistan will not be able formulate an actual battle-ready force around the ATAK-2 any time soon.

I cannot help but feel that some members on this forum have a strange… fixation on Turkish systems and equipments that went beyond reasonable pragmatic considerations for actual defense capability. Pakistan is a small country with a big, belligerent, and increasingly unstable neighbour, and I logically assume that any talk for Pakistan defense should be on a “able, ready, now” basis. But given the trend of “We got JF-17s, can we strap turkish avionics and missiles on them?” “We got Z-10MEs, can we strap L-UMTAS on them?” and so fourth, I believe there is a certain distracting mentality at play that I don’t quite grasp.

Can someone with more experience with this forum explain this mentality?
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There are a lot of complex, sensitive, and interesting issues involved. But not suitable for deep dissection in this forum.
I will try to give you an answer in another way.

There is an old Chinese saying:

未经他人苦, 莫劝他人善. 你若经我苦, 未必有我善!

This quote is from a text by Zhuangzi (369 BC - 286 BC). Its direct translation is: If you have not experienced the suffering of another, do not advise him to do good. If you have experienced another's suffering, you may not be as kind as he is.
What it means on a deeper level is that you need to delve into and appreciate the source of another person's viewpoint in order to understand the roots of their thinking. It doesn't make any sense if you don't delve deeper and just judge other people's views on the surface.
Simply put: you need to be completely in their shoes and worldview to examine their point of view.
 
Michael said:
There are a lot of complex, sensitive, and interesting issues involved. But not suitable for deep dissection in this forum.
I will try to give you an answer in another way.

There is an old Chinese saying:

未经他人苦, 莫劝他人善. 你若经我苦, 未必有我善!

This quote is from a text by Zhuangzi (369 BC - 286 BC). Its direct translation is: If you have not experienced the suffering of another, do not advise him to do good. If you have experienced another's suffering, you may not be as kind as he is.
What it means on a deeper level is that you need to delve into and appreciate the source of another person's viewpoint in order to understand the roots of their thinking. It doesn't make any sense if you don't delve deeper and just judge other people's views on the surface.
Simply put: you need to be completely in their shoes and worldview to examine their point of view.
Click to expand...
I think the explanation is rather simpler. Some kids want to have all the shiny toys they see, even if they have a better toy at home.
 
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Michael said:
YES.
The problems you describe are all additional problems due to the lack of power in its engine. When the engine issues are resolved, they will no longer be an issue.
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How long it take Chinese.... To create solid power stable engine
 
Harbyharb said:
Since a lot of members have brought up the ATAK-2, what is the status of the project anyway?

I only recall that 1 bare bones prototype that left the ground exactly once in 2023, and was never heard from again, and a brief search a moment ago tells me that the turks are shelving it to prioritize on their Blackhawk knockoff, promising they will go back to the ATAK-2 after 2028. I wouldn’t be surprised since they have another Kaan situation, as the ATAK-2 depended on engines from Ukrainian firm Motor Sich, which practically no longer exists by now, which means no matter what, Pakistan will not be able formulate an actual battle-ready force around the ATAK-2 any time soon.

I cannot help but feel that some members on this forum have a strange… fixation on Turkish systems and equipments that went beyond reasonable pragmatic considerations for actual defense capability. Pakistan is a small country with a big, belligerent, and increasingly unstable neighbour, and I logically assume that any talk for Pakistan defense should be on a “able, ready, now” basis. But given the trend of “We got JF-17s, can we strap turkish avionics and missiles on them?” “We got Z-10MEs, can we strap L-UMTAS on them?” and so fourth, I believe there is a certain distracting mentality at play that I don’t quite grasp.

Can someone with more experience with this forum explain this mentality?
Click to expand...

Put simply, it is about diversification of military technology that gives military advantage and military supply diversity. Having the entire fleet dependent on the PL15E for example is not good if that missile is compromised or weaknesses are discovered that can be exploited militarily by the opponent, as that would have the entire fleet rendered ineffective for that specific capability. Therefore having the equivalent Turkish missiles/systems in play gives more diversity and more problems for the Indians to encounter.

You don't want to go crazy on diversity but you do need alternative technology, supplies and capability. As you say, Pakistan has a problematic neighbour and the space for mistakes is low.

Turkish systems therefore are part of that pragmatism.
 
Metal 0-1 said:
Idk
Could be a political move to force Pakistan to pay for the AH-1Zs that have rolled out of factory and keeping them in storage would also cost them money.
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With so many idiots and lobbyists, the US will lose everything to China. The fact that they didn't allow T-129 engines and instead went and made Pakistan buy helicopters from China is another indication of how stupid they are. They don't even say, "At least we'll keep them dependent." It's ridiculous how stupid they are. They even forced us to change the engines on Türkiye's vehicles, and Germany shot itself in the foot with the Altay issue. As long as the West is this stupid, they're bound to lose.
 
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Just speculation on my end. I think Pakistan wanted to buy AH-1Zs with money left over in the frozen CSF. Americans (Biden et-al) were no longer willing to do that. When Pakistan tried to go for T-129s, Americans vetoed that using the Honeywell engines in the helicopter as their leverage but it was to suggest that they were not happy with Pakistan not forking money for American helis and instead going for the Turkish ones.
 
What happened to 8 or 9 AH-1Zs Pakistan vipers put on storage?
 
Fatman17 said:
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The second video does not look like its from China...it looks like Pakistani landscape.
 
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