Opinion: India Pakistan near conflict - Escalation management non-existent

[Rationale]

I think now is a window for Pakistan to actually meaningfully craft an identity devoid of indian hypenating

At least in the United States, Pakistan has spent considerable resources to re-hyphenating itself with India and appears to have succeeded in doing so, at least with Trump, much to the chagrin of the Indian diplomatic corps.

As far as internal politics is concerned, without the common enemy in India, the power of the Pakistani army will completely unravel and ethnocentric forces would threaten the very existence of the Pakistani state in its current form.

 

[RajaBaja]

At least in the United States, Pakistan has spent considerable resources to re-hyphenating itself with India and appears to have succeeded in doing so, at least with Trump, much to the chagrin of the Indian diplomatic corps.

As far as internal politics is concerned, without the common enemy in India, the power of the Pakistani army will completely unravel and ethnocentric forces would threaten the very existence of the Pakistani state in its current form.

Correct your logic. Without "Pakistan's super man status produced by Modi to scare off ordinary Indians" Hindutva can't proceed. So he scares and fools Indian population, the one that's liberal and educated and not behind Hindu extremism, so that they can support him. He already has the support of the extreme minded Hindus. So combine the two then allows him to push forward with his "akhand bharant" and "Hindutva" agendas.

 

[r3alist]

At least in the United States, Pakistan has spent considerable resources to re-hyphenating itself with India and appears to have succeeded in doing so, at least with Trump, much to the chagrin of the Indian diplomatic corps.

As far as internal politics is concerned, without the common enemy in India, the power of the Pakistani army will completely unravel and ethnocentric forces would threaten the very existence of the Pakistani state in its current form.

What proof do you have that money and effort was spent on hyphenating

If all it needed was money lobbying and effort how come everyone else has not succeeded?

Did Pakistan also pay off the entire Indian media?

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

At least in the United States, Pakistan has spent considerable resources to re-hyphenating itself with India and appears to have succeeded in doing so, at least with Trump, much to the chagrin of the Indian diplomatic corps.

As far as internal politics is concerned, without the common enemy in India, the power of the Pakistani army will completely unravel and ethnocentric forces would threaten the very existence of the Pakistani state in its current form.

The defeat of the indian military at the hands of Pakistan despite india being more than 7× bigger than Pakistan and having the FULL BACKING of america, the west, israel and russia is what has got ALL the major capitals of the world interested in Pakistan. NOTHING ELSE. No-one in the world especially america and the west can take india seriously anymore. indian credibility and it's reputation has been permanently damaged. IF india was easily defeated by the Pakistan military then there is NO WAY india can be the bulwark against China on behalf of america and the west. india has NO USE for them. Operation sindoor has helped Pakistan more than 3.5 trillion dollars invested in india since 1995 by america.

 

[Baibers_1260]

Kashmir's UN vote allows it to decide how they want to live. And their ONLY option is "INDEPENDENCE". So step 1 is to give Kashmiris TOTAL independence like they've always had pre-1947. They will then draw their own constitution under the UN charter and declaration of independence and other governing procedures as they please. A functional "Kashmiri State" will come into being.

After that, they will internally decide who they want to affiliate for defense, or cultural ties or free trade, etc. Since majority has always been Muslim population, a result may be that they would want Pakistani forces to defend them. But, under an Independent Kashmir's command. This is 2025, Kashmiris are mixed up between India and Pakistan. I think by using common sense, I am willing to guarantee that they will keep an "open border" policy for both India and Pakistan. It's a win win and a huge population gets its land back and right to self govern how they please. But again, ALLOW them VOTE!

As you have mentioned elsewhere, it's not a question of Kashmir. Theoretically even if Pakistan is defeated and cedes Kashmir to India, the enmity will not end. The enmity was somewhat dampened after the secession of East Pakistan, and our military defeat in civil war in 1971, even though our Western wing remained largely intact though damaged. The government of India in 1972 was a left of center secular government and didn't want to impose a "Versailles" like humiliation on Pakistan. The then secular government of India, feared the rise of a religious nationalist government with an apocalyptic vision which would put martyrdom before surrender or occupation. So it went all out to strengthen the nominally secular government in power in Pakistan by signing the Simla Agreement just 7 months after the 1971 war ended. After the Simla Agreement the then government of India feared the rise of religious nationalism as an immediate threat and cracked down on the fundamentalist forces imposing an Emergency in 1975.
The secular rationalists lost the battle in 1977 and but for a brief revival lost permanently from 1989 onwards.

Much water has flowed down both the Indus and Ganga since:

1. There is a fascist religious fundamentalist government in power in India, which is nuclear armed with the third largest armed forces establishment in the world, with a single minded objective to annexe Pakistan, Bangladesh and eliminate the population within and replace them with populations from India. The minority population inside India must likewise be eliminated
2. Indian strategists are openly talking about "living space" saying Indua's population needs space to exist and the ancient boundaries of the mythical Vedic Akhand Bharat must be reclaimed. This is a direct parallel to the Lebensraum
3. There is a name for the religious minorities in India which is mlech, loosely meaning outsider or foreigner but actually meaning "unwanted " It is a direct parallel of the Nazi untermenschen . Its not just the minority inside India who are mlech but Pakistanis and Bangladeshis living inside their countries are mlech as well. The premise is that those lands belong to "Indians" and the foreigner, usurping mlech must be destroyed or eliminated.

There is unfortunately no logic, or rationale that can be utilized to build any sort of communication to stave off a horrific war that will kill hundreds of millions; the largest carnage known in the history of mankind.
On this forum we waste a lot of time typing thousands of words responding to enemy trolls that are diverting the narrative to Kashmir, Water Treaty, Terrorism etc. The real reason is the complete incompatibility of our civilizations ( or so-called "civilization " of the enemy) and an existential generational struggle we are facing.
This war is shortly going to culminate in a horrific apocalyptic nuclear holocaust. The enemy trolls present straws for us to clutch with the deliberate aim of psychologically conditioning us for our defeat and destruction; their own delusions about their own survival not withstanding
In the short time we have left we should also discuss civil defense, ways for some of us to survive the holocaust, and have a plan to rebuild from the ashes.
Answering enemy trolls is a waste of time

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

What proof do you have that money and effort was spent on hyphenating

If all it needed was money lobbying and effort how come everyone else has not succeeded?

Did Pakistan also pay off the entire Indian media?

Did Pakistan pay off the entire indian military in letting Pakistan defeat it?

 

[RajaBaja]

As you have mentioned elsewhere, it's not a question of Kashmir. Theoretically even if Pakistan is defeated and cedes Kashmir to India, the enmity will not end. The enmity was somewhat dampened after the secession of East Pakistan, and our military defeat in civil war in 1971, even though our Western wing remained largely intact though damaged. The government of India in 1972 was a left of center secular government and didn't want to impose a "Versailles" like humiliation on Pakistan. The then secular government of India, feared the rise of a religious nationalist government with an apocalyptic vision which would put martyrdom before surrender or occupation. So it went all out to strengthen the nominally secular government in power in Pakistan by signing the Simla Agreement just 7 months after the 1971 war ended. After the Simla Agreement the then government of India feared the rise of religious nationalism as an immediate threat and cracked down on the fundamentalist forces imposing an Emergency in 1975.
The secular rationalists lost the battle in 1977 and but for a brief revival lost permanently from 1989 onwards.

Much water has flowed down both the Indus and Ganga since:

1. There is a fascist religious fundamentalist government in power in India, which is nuclear armed with the third largest armed forces establishment in the world, with a single minded objective to annexe Pakistan, Bangladesh and eliminate the population within and replace them with populations from India. The minority population inside India must likewise be eliminated
2. Indian strategists are openly talking about "living space" saying Indua's population needs space to exist and the ancient boundaries of the mythical Vedic Akhand Bharat must be reclaimed. This is a direct parallel to the Lebensraum
3. There is a name for the religious minorities in India which is mlech, loosely meaning outsider or foreigner but actually meaning "unwanted " It is a direct parallel of the Nazi untermenschen . Its not just the minority inside India who are mlech but Pakistanis and Bangladeshis living inside their countries are mlech as well. The premise is that those lands belong to "Indians" and the foreigner, usurping mlech must be destroyed or eliminated.

There is unfortunately no logic, or rationale that can be utilized to build any sort of communication to stave off a horrific war that will kill hundreds of millions; the largest carnage known in the history of mankind.
On this forum we waste a lot of time typing thousands of words responding to enemy trolls that are diverting the narrative to Kashmir, Water Treaty, Terrorism etc. The real reason is the complete incompatibility of our civilizations ( or so-called "civilization " of the enemy) and an existential generational struggle we are facing.
This war is shortly going to culminate in a horrific apocalyptic nuclear holocaust. The enemy trolls present straws for us to clutch with the deliberate aim of psychologically conditioning us for our defeat and destruction; their own delusions about their own survival not withstanding
In the short time we have left we should also discuss civil defense, ways for some of us to survive the holocaust, and have a plan to rebuild from the ashes.
Answering enemy trolls is a waste of time

Pakistan has read India ahead of time. We had people running our military who didn't have the right focus, jazba and religious understanding of what Pakistan is. We have that now. The narrative is really simple:

"India is an existential threat" and nothing more.

We must get ready to defeat it conventional and then nuclear. Because just like their current sabre rattling and war mongering and threats, when their rears will be handed to them in conventional might, they WILL go nuclear. If any Pakistani can't grasp this reality, he needs to stop taking that happy medicine at night.

The Rocket Force is a step that has shaken India bad. I've noticed that in their media as well as through some contacts. They can't leave the entire Indian border and bring every soldier and every jet to Pakistani borders. They have to watch China also, or, be ready to lose all 7 sisters marrying one man called China.

With our defense budget growing and associated military growth, in a few years, our parity may be 1:2. That's manageable with higher tech, advance weapons and quick decision making. Us Muslims have seen far worst in the history.

 

[Bigda_Jatt]

Enough to wipe out all Indian battalions.

You can just use one, that will be enough.

 

[That_Guy]

Both sides have their own beliefs and versions of the story.

Personally, I strongly believe that Jammu and Kashmir belongs to neither India nor Pakistan — both are outsiders. In an ideal world, it would have been an independent country, with no land lost to either side including to Chinese.

The UN also failed to deliver justice by not giving the people the option to vote for independence from both countries. And both nations know very well that, if such a choice were offered, the people would likely choose freedom. So IN resolution is waste for me even so, it will never gonna to implement.

That brings me to the present: after so many blunders in the past, the best solution now is to accept the current reality and move forward. But if people continue to live with the false hopes their leaders have been selling for decades, nothing will change — and there will always be the risk of war. It doesn't not matter modi in the office or not.

I agree for the most part, and will leave it with that.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Pakistan has read India ahead of time. We had people running our military who didn't have the right focus, jazba and religious understanding of what Pakistan is. We have that now. The narrative is really simple:

"India is an existential threat" and nothing more.

We must get ready to defeat it conventional and then nuclear. Because just like their current sabre rattling and war mongering and threats, when their rears will be handed to them in conventional might, they WILL go nuclear. If any Pakistani can't grasp this reality, he needs to stop taking that happy medicine at night.

The Rocket Force is a step that has shaken India bad. I've noticed that in their media as well as through some contacts. They can't leave the entire Indian border and bring every soldier and every jet to Pakistani borders. They have to watch China also, or, be ready to lose all 7 sisters marrying one man called China.

With our defense budget growing and associated military growth, in a few years, our parity may be 1:2. That's manageable with higher tech, advance weapons and quick decision making. Us Muslims have seen far worst in the history.

What needs to be done now is that the Pakistani public especially the so called "intellectuals" need to be made aware of ALL the above facts. You still have some deranged retards especially those jornalists from the dawn newspaper who try to promote Pakistani appeasement for indian hegemony. That Pakistan should cave in to all indian demands and wants. Which is then followed up by some cringe article of how indians and Pakistanis are then"same people"..........

 

[NA71]

Ohh Modi itna ghussa?

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[RajaBaja]

Ohh Modi itna ghussa?

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Modi has been angry since May. Trump has only put more fire on it. For any PM of even Bhutan "Surrender Narender" is a shame lol

And please sir, No Haqeeqat tv bullsh8. This guy makes up so much stories and stuff it's a shame.

A couple of people told me he doesn't read proper "Bismillah" till the end. He cuts it to make it sound like he's reading it. I've tried to listen and I thought something was off. He's not a "half Pakistani - half White" case. He doesn't need to start with it if he doesn't want to, I guess he'll just lose religious subscribers? Anyway. Please quote someone more logical and factual please.

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

That is what India wants.
Next time India is ready to soar through each and every rung in the escalation ladder, including the nuclear one if needed.

 

[NA71]

Modi has been angry since May. Trump has only put more fire on it. For any PM of even Bhutan "Surrender Narender" is a shame lol

And please sir, No Haqeeqat tv bullsh8. This guy makes up so much stories and stuff it's a shame.

A couple of people told me he doesn't read proper "Bismillah" till the end. He cuts it to make it sound like he's reading it. I've tried to listen and I thought something was off. He's not a "half Pakistani - half White" case. He doesn't need to start with it if he doesn't want to, I guess he'll just lose religious subscribers? Anyway. Please quote someone more logical and factual please.

Ok noted.....no more posting from Haqeeqat TV.

 

[r3alist]

That is what India wants.
Next time India is ready to soar through each and every rung in the escalation ladder, including the nuclear one if needed.

Hopefully the tejas get its moment to shine (pending delivery of engines). Then you can enjoy all the rungs of the ladder you want