Opinion: India Pakistan near conflict - Escalation management non-existent

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Round 2 coming or not? What you guys reckon?

Of course the indians will try to attack Pakistan. They have no choice but to do so. Failure will result in them losing a lot of investment, technological transfers and limitless immigration to the west.

 

[RajaBaja]

Round 2 coming or not? What you guys reckon?

Right now, India is going on a sleep mode for a few days. This "Rocket Force" thing happened much faster than they could imagine. What's interesting is, the force was "activated" today, not created from 0.

This is expansion of Pakistan's military, developing into a global big military setup. If you watch Indian media, they were going berserk on this development blaming the Chinese to "replicating a PLA like setup in their neighborhood".

This force, will now build and acquire needed numbers of rocket based weapons, various types of missiles, including Hypersonic one's soon to be tested. Over time, thousands of missiles are in the scope of this specialized force.

India will now sit back, and reassess the hand that's been played. It's not so easy anymore to use the Bra-Mouse without taking a punch immediately on the face.

 

[Abid123]

Of course the indians will try to attack Pakistan. They have no choice but to do so. Failure will result in them losing a lot of investment, technological transfers and limitless immigration to the west.

Next time no "restraint". We need pound the hell out of these jeets.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

What worries me is that India is attempting to rewrite history.

Normally, this wouldn't be an issues as nations do this all the time; turning their clearly defeats into victories.

The issue this time is that because India is clearly misleading the Indian public, the next conflict may end up being a full scale war, because Indians are overly hyped up on their own seeming invincibility, because they think Pakistan lies and India always tells the truth, not knowing they're victims of the largest propaganda machine in the world.

So long as ultranationalists, and Hindutva extremists are in power, the possibility of war increases every year.

It depends.

We believe that Pakistan started its journey on the wrong note, driven by insecurity and fear that India might act against it — even when India had no such intentions.

After Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq’s rule, Pakistan moved completely in the wrong direction. Today, the country is effectively under full military control. In such a system, the army maintains its importance only if tensions remain high.

If the India–Pakistan dispute were resolved, the Pakistani army’s position of power and influence would be diminished. Therefore, it serves the army’s interests to keep relations tense. They will never allow a genuinely good relationship with India.

This means there will always be a risk of war if something triggers it — regardless of whether Modi is in power or not. For example, the 1999 Kargil War happened without Modi being in office

 

[That_Guy]

It depends.

We believe that Pakistan started its journey on the wrong note, driven by insecurity and fear that India might act against it — even when India had no such intentions.

After Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq’s rule, Pakistan moved completely in the wrong direction. Today, the country is effectively under full military control. In such a system, the army maintains its importance only if tensions remain high.

If the India–Pakistan dispute were resolved, the Pakistani army’s position of power and influence would be diminished. Therefore, it serves the army’s interests to keep relations tense. They will never allow a genuinely good relationship with India.

This means there will always be a risk of war if something triggers it — regardless of whether Modi is in power or not. For example, the 1999 Kargil War happened without Modi being in office

Of course you believe this, and of course people in Pakistan believe that India has designs to gain complete hegemony over the region, and its first act against Pakistan was the unjust occupation of Kashmir, and everything after that has only reinforced that theory.

But that's all a matter of which side you want to believe.

I have never subscribed to the theory that peace in India would decrease the influence of the military, as we have examples all over the world of military dictatorships being in power regardless of external threats existing or not.

Post-WoT, Pakistan has had no interest in fighting India, precisely because it's economy has been so battered, and Pakistan is of the opinion that India has been deliberately been sabotaging peace talks, and has been exceptionally increasing tensions to keep Pakistan economically unstable.

But, it doesn't matter at this point.

What matters is that India, whether you believe it or not, is not in a good position right now when it comes to military influence across the region.

It will want pay back, and its increasingly absurd propaganda is just beating the drums of war harder for the Indian public to hear.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Round 2 coming or not? What you guys reckon?

It depends who you are asking.
If you are asking people like me, then yes, war is standing at our door step and about to knock on our doors.
If you ask someone like , ( I don't want to tag him), then he will say Haan sub bakwas hai mojain Karo.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Of course you believe this, and of course people in Pakistan believe that India has designs to gain complete hegemony over the region, and its first act against Pakistan was the unjust occupation of Kashmir, and everything after that has only reinforced that theory.

But that's all a matter of which side you want to believe.

I have never subscribed to the theory that peace in India would decrease the influence of the military, as we have examples all over the world of military dictatorships being in power regardless of external threats existing or not.

Post-WoT, Pakistan has had no interest in fighting India, precisely because it's economy has been so battered, and Pakistan is of the opinion that India has been deliberately been sabotaging peace talks, and has been exceptionally increasing tensions to keep Pakistan economically unstable.

But, it doesn't matter at this point.

What matters is that India, whether you believe it or not, is not in a good position right now when it comes to military influence across the region.

It will want pay back, and its increasingly absurd propaganda is just beating the drums of war harder for the Indian public to hear.

The reason I say Pakistan started its journey on the wrong note is because of Kashmir. There’s no evidence that India was planning to take control of it outright at the time.

As Indians, we believe that if Pakistan had not tried to take Kashmir by force, things could have turned out very differently. It’s possible that Kashmir might have become an independent country — and perhaps, if political circumstances changed, it could have voluntarily joined Pakistan or india as well on coming years, in case if they decided to join india then pakistan tried by force, still we can understand it..

But Pakistan with fear and insucurity, No one can say for certain. But Pakistan’s impatience to seize Kashmir by force reshaped the situation in the entire South Asian region, creating tensions that persist to this day.

Calling it “India-occupied Kashmir” is not a true story as per true rewritten version of history. In my view, the real story began with Pakistan’s own blunders, driven by insecurity and impatience.

 

[That_Guy]

The reason I say Pakistan started its journey on the wrong note is because of Kashmir. There’s no evidence that India was planning to take control of it outright at the time.

And yet it did. Actions are evidence enough.

As Indians, we believe that if Pakistan had not tried to take Kashmir by force, things could have turned out very differently. It’s possible that Kashmir might have become an independent country — and perhaps, if political circumstances changed, it could have voluntarily joined Pakistan or india as well on coming years, in case if they decided to join india then pakistan tried by force, still we can understand it..

Again, actions speak louder than words. We both know that the Kashmiri raj was an anti-muslim genocidal monster. He was always poised to eventually join India, considering his well known hatred of Muslims.

But Pakistan with fear and insucurity, No one can say for certain. But Pakistan’s impatience to seize Kashmir by force reshaped the situation in the entire South Asian region, creating tensions that persist to this day.

Pakistan had no choice.

India knew it then.

Calling it “India-occupied Kashmir” is not a true story as per true rewritten version of history. In my view, the real story began with Pakistan’s own blunders, driven by insecurity and impatience.

you can it a blunder, I call it a partial success in liberating the region.

By the way, by definition Indian-occupied-Kashmir is correct.

Its not rewritten. It's well documented history.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

And yet it did. Actions are evidence enough.


Again, actions speak louder than words. We both know that the Kashmiri raj was an anti-muslim genocidal monster. He was always poised to eventually join India, considering his well known hatred of Muslims.

Pakistan had no choice.

India knew it then.

you can it a blunder, I call it a partial success in liberating the region.

By the way, by definition Indian-occupied-Kashmir is correct.

Its not rewritten. It's well documented history.

Both sides have their own beliefs and versions of the story.

Personally, I strongly believe that Jammu and Kashmir belongs to neither India nor Pakistan — both are outsiders. In an ideal world, it would have been an independent country, with no land lost to either side including to Chinese.

The UN also failed to deliver justice by not giving the people the option to vote for independence from both countries. And both nations know very well that, if such a choice were offered, the people would likely choose freedom. So IN resolution is waste for me even so, it will never gonna to implement.

That brings me to the present: after so many blunders in the past, the best solution now is to accept the current reality and move forward. But if people continue to live with the false hopes their leaders have been selling for decades, nothing will change — and there will always be the risk of war. It doesn't not matter modi in the office or not.

 

[RajaBaja]

Both sides have their own beliefs and versions of the story.

Personally, I strongly believe that Jammu and Kashmir belongs to neither India nor Pakistan — both are outsiders. In an ideal world, it would have been an independent country, with no land lost to either side including to Chinese.

The bold part is EXACTLY what it is. That's what the Kashmiris want also. Affiliation with a nation doesn't mean giving territory. Why does India not agree to let them VOTE for 75 years now?

India will let them Vote by 2070, when the Hindu population will exceed that of Muslims! Kashmiris won't play "enemies" to one and be friends to another. They will affiliate with Pakistan due to religions connection but will keep their ties with India just they may be today, without India having ability to install or govern the area. It's a win win for both countries. So if you understand Kashmir doesn't "belong" to one nation, let them have their right to VOTE on their OWN LAND!

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

The bold part is EXACTLY what it is. That's what the Kashmiris want also. Affiliation with a nation doesn't mean giving territory. Why does India not agree to let them VOTE for 75 years now?

India will let them Vote by 2070, when the Hindu population will exceed that of Muslims! Kashmiris won't play "enemies" to one and be friends to another. They will affiliate with Pakistan due to religions connection but will keep their ties with India just they may be today, without India having ability to install or govern the area. It's a win win for both countries. So if you understand Kashmir doesn't "belong" to one nation, let them have their right to VOTE on their OWN LAND!

I said both countries are outsiders if you didn't read it properly

 

[RajaBaja]

I said both countries are outsiders if you didn't read it properly

I read it. The question is the same "Why don't you let them vote"? Outsiders don't put 8 lac uniformed soldiers into an outsider land!

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

I read it. The question is the same "Why don't you let them vote"? Outsiders don't put 8 lac uniformed soldiers into an outsider land!

If someone were truly honest and humane, they would not give Kashmir only two options — “choose us” or “choose the other.” A fair vote would include a third choice: independence.

Any referendum without the option of freedom for the entire region of Jammu and Kashmir — including the parts under Indian, Pakistani, and Chinese control — is meaningless.

And regardless of what anyone says, this is not something that India alone must do. Such a decision would never happen unilaterally. It could only take place if all three — India, Pakistan, and China — agreed to it.

Now, coming to reality — this is why I say the only real option is to accept the current situation and move forward. If someone still chooses to live with the false hopes sold by leaders for decades, they’re only fooling themselves. Leaders will continue selling these false hopes for their benefits..

 

[RajaBaja]

If someone were truly honest and humane, they would not give Kashmir only two options — “choose us” or “choose the other.” A fair vote would include a third choice: independence.

Any referendum without the option of freedom for the entire region of Jammu and Kashmir — including the parts under Indian, Pakistani, and Chinese control — is meaningless.

And regardless of what anyone says, this is not something that India alone must do. Such a decision would never happen unilaterally. It could only take place if all three — India, Pakistan, and China — agreed to it.

Now, coming to reality — this is why I say the only real option is to accept the current situation and move forward. If someone still chooses to live with the false hopes sold by leaders for decades, they’re only fooling themselves. Leaders will continue selling these false hopes for their benefits..

Kashmir's UN vote allows it to decide how they want to live. And their ONLY option is "INDEPENDENCE". So step 1 is to give Kashmiris TOTAL independence like they've always had pre-1947. They will then draw their own constitution under the UN charter and declaration of independence and other governing procedures as they please. A functional "Kashmiri State" will come into being.

After that, they will internally decide who they want to affiliate for defense, or cultural ties or free trade, etc. Since majority has always been Muslim population, a result may be that they would want Pakistani forces to defend them. But, under an Independent Kashmir's command. This is 2025, Kashmiris are mixed up between India and Pakistan. I think by using common sense, I am willing to guarantee that they will keep an "open border" policy for both India and Pakistan. It's a win win and a huge population gets its land back and right to self govern how they please. But again, ALLOW them VOTE!

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Kashmir's UN vote allows it to decide how they want to live. And their ONLY option is "INDEPENDENCE". So step 1 is to give Kashmiris TOTAL independence like they've always had pre-1947. They will then draw their own constitution under the UN charter and declaration of independence and other governing procedures as they please. A functional "Kashmiri State" will come into being.

After that, they will internally decide who they want to affiliate for defense, or cultural ties or free trade, etc. Since majority has always been Muslim population, a result may be that they would want Pakistani forces to defend them. But, under an Independent Kashmir's command. This is 2025, Kashmiris are mixed up between India and Pakistan. I think by using common sense, I am willing to guarantee that they will keep an "open border" policy for both India and Pakistan. It's a win win and a huge population gets its land back and right to self govern how they please. But again, ALLOW them VOTE!

There was never an option for independence in the UN resolution — because both India and Pakistan refused to allow it.