PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[maxpane]

oldest mirages and F7's

first f 7 then mirages

 

[ThoroughPro]

first f 7 then mirages

makes sense, mirages are still somewhat useful for bombing missions provided they operate in Sky's secured by PAF.

 

[Ali_Baba]

makes sense, mirages are still somewhat useful for bombing missions provided they operate in Sky's secured by PAF.

Partially useful in that scenario, but availability will be a significant issue given that they are very very old, and serviceability will be low.

 

[FuturePAF]

Significant chatter on J-10C's orders been upgraded to 3 squadrons, which is 54 to 60 jets! I personally think the minimum we need the J-10C is around 4-5 squadrons. That's about 72 to 90 aircraft. India will go with their MRCA with Rafale, that's another 114 Rafales + 26 existing in the airforce and 28 for the navy, totaling 168 Rafals. So J-10C near 90 to 100 number will be enough as a counter balance.

JF-17's all block II and I's need to be upgraded with block III's radar so to use PL-15. And 45 F-16's upgrade to Murad AESA with BVR options. That would total our front line BVR capable fleet to 90 J-10C +45 Older F-16's Murad upgrade+180 JF-17 upgraded with block III radars = 315.
That's a pretty decent number for now as we know 50-60% availability is what to expect. So 315-60% is 189 top line jets ready for combat anytime.

Considering China wants to shutdown the J-10 and therefore Pakistan has to decided soon, it would be better off Pakistan accept it won’t be able to hold more than 3 squadrons of F-16 in its inventory, most likely only 2 squadrons (36 jets) as time goes on, even after a SLEP and MLU for much of the fleet.

Therefore, the PAF has to commit to buying at least another 4 if not 5 more J-10 squadrons, Pakistan might as well pickup much of the production line alongside the JF-17 production line and look to consolidate production capabilities to maintain those two platforms for decades to come.

Pakistan should probably aim for at least 7 squadrons of J-10s and 10 squadrons of the JF-17, alongside the 2 squadrons of J-35A and 2 Squadrons of F-16s. Leaving room for acquiring more stealth fighters down the line, as things develop, as well a retiring off the last of the F-7s and Mirages.

Only with squadron numbers like these, picking up the production facilities should be worth it. Also, Pakistan will have to bite the bullet and look to hire all the Chinese engineers it will need to train Pakistani engineers to learn how to make the two jets completely, the whole ecosystem. At the end of a 10 year process, the PAF could shift to turning these facilities to make the J-35A mid 2030s variant or the KAAN, whatever the PAF at the time determines works best for the nation. It also makes it likely the engineers could design a single engine JF-17 PFX replacement for the oldest JF-17s to ensure squadron numbers.

We can’t expect the current openness to ensure F-16 upgrades will come and even if they do, be supported enough to be depended upon for our defense. F-16s are the bonus fleet (western training, western/Turkish munitions, primarily strike oriented as the Aim-120C5 will probably not be as competitive in a decade or so) now.

 

[Reichmarshal]

F 7 are long gone, only a few FT 7 remain for fighter conversion, and around 54 F 7 PG.
Around 80 some mirages of all types remain.

 

[FuturePAF]

F 7 are long gone, only a few FT 7 remain for fighter conversion, and around 54 F 7 PG.
Around 80 some mirages of all types remain.

Hopefully all FT-7 and F-7PG are replaced by JF-17s and all the Mirages replaced by J-10s, on a nearly 1:1 basis.

 

[Reichmarshal]

Hopefully all FT-7 and F-7PG are replaced by JF-17s and all the Mirages replaced by J-10s, on a nearly 1:1 basis.

thats the plan

 

[FuturePAF]

thats the plan

Now let’s hope, if the PAF will operate this many J-10s, then a dedicated EW variant will be built; the J-10D.

 

[Michael]

Hopefully all FT-7 and F-7PG are replaced by JF-17s and all the Mirages replaced by J-10s, on a nearly 1:1 basis.

You seem to have forgotten.
Why is the JF-17 fighter jet called “JF-17”?

 

[FuturePAF]

You seem to have forgotten.
Why is the JF-17 fighter jet called “JF-17”?

Joint Fighter. What are you trying to say?

Pakistan didn’t get all the facilities to build the aircraft locally, as it is a joint project. Considering China wants to move on to 5th and 6th gen fighters, IMHO, Pakistan should seek to adopt the production lines and expertise to support their jets for decades to come.

There is no doubt that China is a reliable supplier, but this desire comes from the news reports that China may shut down the lines for the J-10 if they don’t get anymore orders. If China does want to shut down the line, and the jets work for Pakistan, it would be good for Pakistan to bring the line to Pakistan, for the sake of continuing to support the jets and invite the Chinese engineers to teach the local engineers how to make all the needed parts to support the jets.

 

[Michael]

Joint Fighter. What are you trying to say?

Guess why it's “17” and not another number?

Pakistan didn’t get all the facilities to build the aircraft locally, as it is a joint project. Considering China wants to move on to 5th and 6th gen fighters, IMHO, Pakistan should seek to adopt the production lines and expertise to support their jets for decades to come.

There is no doubt that China is a reliable supplier, but this desire comes from the news reports that China may shut down the lines for the J-10 if they don’t get anymore orders. If China does want to shut down the line, and the jets work for Pakistan, it would be good for Pakistan to bring the line to Pakistan, for the sake of continuing to support the jets and invite the Chinese engineers to teach the local engineers how to make all the needed parts to support the jets.

I have already explained the issue regarding the J-10C assembly line.
Will Pakistan introduce the J-10C assembly line? That is not important.
What is important is that it makes no sense.
==================================
The claim that “China is about to shut down the production line for the J-10 series fighter jets” is entirely different from the situation in the United States, where the F-22 production line was closed.

What we are referring to is merely the closure of the assembly production line for the J-10 series fighter jets.
Its subsystems (radar and avionics systems, engines, cockpit systems, landing gear, etc.) are produced by other companies, and these subsystems will continue to be manufactured and widely used in other fields.
The production molds for the airframe components will be retained by CAC to provide maintenance support for the J-10 series fighter jets of the PLAAF and PAF. However, the daily operations of the airframe component production workshop will be shifted to the production of airframe components for other fighter jets.
Specialized equipment for the J-10 series fighter jet assembly line, such as assembly tools and workbenches, will be dismantled or modified.
Workers on the assembly line will be retrained to assemble other fighter jets.
Within the next 10 to 20 years, it can be restored in a very short period of time if necessary.

Chinese people place great importance on thrift and frugality, and we strive to make the most of residual value. The actual loss incurred by shutting down the assembly production line for the J-10 series fighter jet is very small.

 

[Deino]

Now let’s hope, if the PAF will operate this many J-10s, then a dedicated EW variant will be built; the J-10D.

There is no J-10D!!

 

[FuturePAF]

There is no J-10D!!

Yet.

The importance of EW is self evident. Dedicated EW as part of a combat formation may become necessary to survive enemy air defenses a stand off jammer like the Havasoj may not be enough.

 

[RajaBaja]

Yet.

The importance of EW is self evident. Dedicated EW as part of a combat formation may become necessary to survive enemy air defenses a stand off jammer like the Havasoj may not be enough.

In a larger area, the logic is valid. But since our depth is less, the ground based Jammers will provide up to 500 KM jamming. For self protection, both JF-17 and J-10C carry an AESA jamming POD.

Today's AESA jamming pods have also eliminated older 3-4 pods specialized for certain wave bands as AESA can manage frequency hopping much easily within one module. Israeli F-15EX's and F-16's also carry one AESA based jamming pod.

 

[FuturePAF]

In a larger area, the logic is valid. But since our depth is less, the ground based Jammers will provide up to 500 KM jamming. For self protection, both JF-17 and J-10C carry an AESA jamming POD.

Today's AESA jamming pods have also eliminated older 3-4 pods specialized for certain wave bands as AESA can manage frequency hopping much easily within one module. Israeli F-15EX's and F-16's also carry one AESA based jamming pod.

When our fighters go on the offensive, or even close to the border, during heightened tensions, we will need more than self protection jammers, as the enemy will be expected that. Look at how the Rafale will all it’s built in EW suite got jumped by the PAF J-10s. A dedicated aircraft with dedicated crew for the mission of protecting a flight package and flying with them will become more necessary as both sides up their capabilities in ground based and standoff aerial EW.