PAF F-16 | Discussions

[Yasser76]

The product exists, the Meteor. Range addition isn't exactly rocket science if the Radar supports it, which we know it does.

India since May has been telling France that Meteor MUST be at the same level as the PL-15, otherwise why buy Rafale? If the deterrence is already destroyed and will be taken down again, why spend billions of dollars? So the French will add more range and may or may not even announce it.

It is India's strategic needs to re-establish range related deterrence. Otherwise spending billions and getting another 100 Rafales is useless as PL-15 has a near 50 KM range advantage over Rafale and it will eat Rafales alive. Indians aren't that stupid.

No, i said the Meteor ER does not exist. Simple fact.

You are basically saying MBDA will now invest millions in a new missile because India demands it without even placing an order for this new imaginary missiles.

Sorry, that is delusional.

 

[RajaBaja]

No, i said the Meteor ER does not exist. Simple fact.

You are basically saying MBDA will now invest millions in a new missile because India demands it without even placing an order for this new imaginary missiles.

Sorry, that is delusional.

From your post, I understand you don't have a background in weapons development and sales. Secondly, you also fail to understand my basic point, when a platform is ALREADY proven outranged by PL-15, why on earth would a nation go buy 100 more jets, only so we can shoot them down easily because we have longer range missiles than they do?

Thinking that a nation after losing 3 Rafales, will invest $20 Billion+ MORE in this platform is silly. It will ONLY happen if the manufacturing nation has assured them that they will allow creation of an equal or superior deterrence in ranges compared to PL-15. That's common sense. Otherwise, if your enemy has 50 KM advantage over you, time to say goodbye to Rafales and just expand SU-30's with super sukhoi upgrade and R-37M's.

I used the term Meteor "ER" as a metaphor. What it means is, extension of fuel in the missile and extension of radar's target range by source code modification for India.

The Meteor in French and NATO service are longer range and so are the radars. India gets the "export" version capped to 180-200 KM.

Just like any radar and missile, whether it's the AMRAAM D-3, PL-15, etc, the REAL range used by the manufacturing nation is always 20-30% higher than the export version and it's never disclosed properly.

India will become the largest buyer of Rafale's in years to come and will have an overhaul factory where the French will hand over limited source codes to the Indians under the new deal. So it's in France's interest to allow India to re-establish deterrence by range extensions. Otherwise India should say goodbye to Rafale's vs. losing them in numbers the next time.

 

[Yasser76]

From your post, I understand you don't have a background in weapons development and sales. Secondly, you also fail to understand my basic point, when a platform is ALREADY proven outranged by PL-15, why on earth would a nation go buy 100 more jets, only so we can shoot them down easily because we have longer range missiles than they do?

Thinking that a nation after losing 3 Rafales, will invest $20 Billion+ MORE in this platform is silly. It will ONLY happen if the manufacturing nation has assured them that they will allow creation of an equal or superior deterrence in ranges compared to PL-15. That's common sense. Otherwise, if your enemy has 50 KM advantage over you, time to say goodbye to Rafales and just expand SU-30's with super sukhoi upgrade and R-37M's.

I used the term Meteor "ER" as a metaphor. What it means is, extension of fuel in the missile and extension of radar's target range by source code modification for India.

The Meteor in French and NATO service are longer range and so are the radars. India gets the "export" version capped to 180-200 KM.

Just like any radar and missile, whether it's the AMRAAM D-3, PL-15, etc, the REAL range used by the manufacturing nation is always 20-30% higher than the export version and it's never disclosed properly.

India will become the largest buyer of Rafale's in years to come and will have an overhaul factory where the French will hand over limited source codes to the Indians under the new deal. So it's in France's interest to allow India to re-establish deterrence by range extensions. Otherwise India should say goodbye to Rafale's vs. losing them in numbers the next time.

Looking past the patronising part of your post and focusing in on facts (not what your "gut" thinks will happen)

1) India right now is in terms of frontline users, only the 4th largest user of the plane" FACT
2) "India will become": is a phrase so worn out in the forum to be almost meaningless. No major follow on order for over 5 years now, and of course, constant talk of one FACT
3) No manufacturer invests and develops weapons if they feel there is no chance of a sale. Right now France is by far the largest user of the plane and there has been no expression of interest from the French Air force. FACT

But sure, "maybe" in the future India "will" and therefore MBDA "may".

These are not facts, but pure conjecture (Google the word)

But yeah, please do type more about your fantasy weapon, and how it will be equipping a fleet of 300 AMCA fighters and 150 Rafales in just 2 years from now.

 

[RajaBaja]

Looking past the patronising part of your post and focusing in on facts (not what your "gut" thinks will happen)

1) India right now is in terms of frontline users, only the 4th largest user of the plane" FACT
2) "India will become": is a phrase so worn out in the forum to be almost meaningless. No major follow on order for over 5 years now, and of course, constant talk of one FACT
3) No manufacturer invests and develops weapons if they feel there is no chance of a sale. Right now France is by far the largest user of the plane and there has been no expression of interest from the French Air force. FACT

But sure, "maybe" in the future India "will" and therefore MBDA "may".

These are not facts, but pure conjecture (Google the word)

But yeah, please do type more about your fantasy weapon, and how it will be equipping a fleet of 300 AMCA fighters and 150 Rafales in just 2 years from now.

Now I've triggered your ego. Us Pakistanis have a huge issue. We don't want to learn or easily accept that our point of view probably didn't have all the details, or, we lack the background in some area. We want to be experts in everything. It doesn't work like that.

The details I've given you, include common sense, background in this area and probably more understanding that I don't have to share here.

If you didn't like it, skip the post and move on. There is no need to get into useless arguments. You post a lot of content here so I like reading your stuff. But that doesn't mean you or I will always be right.

 

[Yasser76]

Now I've triggered your ego. Us Pakistanis have a huge issue. We don't want to learn or easily accept that our point of view probably didn't have all the details, or, we lack the background in some area. We want to be experts in everything. It doesn't work like that.

The details I've given you, include common sense, background in this area and probably more understanding that I don't have to share here.

If you didn't like it, skip the post and move on. There is no need to get into useless arguments. You post a lot of content here so I like reading your stuff. But that doesn't mean you or I will always be right.

No ego at all mate, just pointing out you are talking of IAF getting a weapon with utmost certainty that does not even exist on paper....

 

[rafale]

The product exists, the Meteor. Range addition isn't exactly rocket science if the Radar supports it, which we know it does.

India since May has been telling France that Meteor MUST be at the same level as the PL-15, otherwise why buy Rafale? If the deterrence is already destroyed and will be taken down again, why spend billions of dollars? So the French will add more range and may or may not even announce it.

It is India's strategic needs to re-establish range related deterrence. Otherwise spending billions and getting another 100 Rafales is useless as PL-15 has a near 50 KM range advantage over Rafale and it will eat Rafales alive. Indians aren't that stupid.

Indians really are that stupid...............didn't they accept the 145 km range of PL15 and proceeded to fly within the kill range of PL15s?

Also, what makes you think the new meteor would be better? True range no none knows.

 

[RajaBaja]

No ego at all mate, just pointing out you are talking of IAF getting a weapon with utmost certainty that does not even exist on paper....

You are ignoring the fact that the weapon already exists!! French and NATO standard Meteor are different than the export version.

Just like the PL-15E has nearly 100 KM less range than PL-15 Chinese version used in Bunyan-um-Marsoos (150 vs. 250 KM). So all they have to do, is to add more fuel and adjust source codes for Indian radars to allow them to operate Meteor's to 250 KM's.

The funny thing is, for these software updates for current Rafales, they will make a fancy name like Rafale Radar & Missile Extension project (Raf-RME 2026 project) and will charge the Indians easily $1 or 2 billion! Plus the cost of these "upgraded Meteors". Got to love this industry.

This is also why Pakistan wants to develop 80% weapons in house, if not 100%. The manufacturer has so much control over their products.

 

[Yasser76]

You are ignoring the fact that the weapon already exists!! French and NATO standard Meteor are different than the export version.

Just like the PL-15E has nearly 100 KM less range than PL-15 Chinese version used in Bunyan-um-Marsoos (150 vs. 250 KM). So all they have to do, is to add more fuel and adjust source codes for Indian radars to allow them to operate Meteor's to 250 KM's.

The funny thing is, for these software updates for current Rafales, they will make a fancy name like Rafale Radar & Missile Extension project (Raf-RME 2026 project) and will charge the Indians easily $1 or 2 billion! Plus the cost of these "upgraded Meteors". Got to love this industry.

This is also why Pakistan wants to develop 80% weapons in house, if not 100%. The manufacturer has so much control over their products.

Any source for this?

 

[RajaBaja]

Indians really are that stupid...............didn't they accept the 145 km range of PL15 and proceeded to fly within the kill range of PL15s?

Also, what makes you think the new meteor would be better? True range no none knows.

There is no "new" Meteor. The Meteors are the same. Read above please.

Indians aren't stupid, they are very smart people. Us Pakistanis just outsmarted them by using Chinese version of the PL-15. Otherwise they knew our PL-15E's range and were out of that range.

Pakistani intellect is a little more than Indians, especially in strategy. Indians are good in task based problem solving. If they weren't smart, they couldn't have fooled America for 30 years for investments and jobs. And now they are making friends with the same China they were suppose to fight with the US.

 

[RajaBaja]

Any source for this?

We just saw this in real life in May. That's probably the most practical source.

PL-15 E: Range around 145 KM. PL-15 standard: Range UNDISCLOSED. We took down Indian jets near 198 KM in the longest BVR kill ever. Meaning the manufacturer's own product's rage far exceeds that of the export version, the PL-15E.

 

[Yasser76]

There is no "new" Meteor. The Meteors are the same. Read above please.

Indians aren't stupid, they are very smart people. Us Pakistanis just outsmarted them by using Chinese version of the PL-15. Otherwise they knew our PL-15E's range and were out of that range.

Pakistani intellect is a little more than Indians, especially in strategy. Indians are good in task based problem solving. If they weren't smart, they couldn't have fooled America for 30 years for investments and jobs. And now they are making friends with the same China they were suppose to fight with the US.

They think they are making friends with China, please stop the BS now. Chinese are not idiots, they know the Indian mindset....

 

[Yasser76]

We just saw this in real life in May. That's probably the most practical source.

PL-15 E: Range around 145 KM. PL-15 standard: Range UNDISCLOSED. We took down Indian jets near 198 KM in the longest BVR kill ever. Meaning the manufacturer's own product's rage far exceeds that of the export version, the PL-15E.

So you have no source for Meteor claim? OK, thanks for confirming.

 

[RajaBaja]

So you have no source for Meteor claim? OK, thanks for confirming.

I have to be honest. I don't expect this debate with you. The amount of your posts suggest you are a high intellect person.

No one will give sources online. We don't even have an official PAF source saying "Yes, we used the PL-15 Chinese version". The Chinese still say we used the PL-15E.

Nations keep these things ambiguous for a reason. And that's the same reason today we are celebrating downing 6 Indian jets.

This situation in warfare is called "strategic ambiguity".

 

[Yasser76]

I have to be honest. I don't expect this debate with you. The amount of your posts suggest you are a high intellect person.

No one will give sources online. We don't even have an official PAF source saying "Yes, we used the PL-15 Chinese version". The Chinese still say we used the PL-15E.

Nations keep these things ambiguous for a reason. And that's the same reason today we are celebrating downing 6 Indian jets.

This situation in warfare is called "strategic ambiguity".

Not a debate, I asked for a source on your claim. Now you say it is "strategic ambiguity" in regards to the Meteor esxtended range. See why I think you are full of s**t?

 

[Yasser76]

That's brown-white syndrome now. Acting like a white, low income, low education gora with using bad English and bad words, doesn't make you a real gora or even make your point valid.

What you should've done, was, agree to disagree and move on. That's what educated people do! You'll rarely see two Indians argue. Why? They've also learned from goras, but from the educated one's. They question the other 1/2 times and then ignore if it doesn't align with their thoughts. While us Pakistanis, we try to act like low education and low income goras/ kalas and it becomes so visible to the educated mind, because we can't beat the other with experience and industry knowledge, let's use bad language and personal insults.

Raise your level, learn to debate on experience, industry knowledge and intellect. Always know, you don't know everything. I learn something new every day.

Try playing the ball and not the man. Dont make it personal.

You made a claim you cannot back up.

Stop humiliating yourself now.