PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[Bratva]

IAF stands no chance in air-air battle if they come anywhere near the LoC / IB.

However, PAF needs to find a solution for their aircrafts launching stand off munitions from deep inside their airspace - without risking own aircrafts to indian AD.

Isn't Taimoor ALCM solution to that problem?

 

[diaspora]

Isn't Taimoor ALCM solution to that problem?

Take out their launch vectors using ALCMs? Sure. But what of the ones they end up launching - Pakistan needs credible ADS and airbase defenses.

 

[Bentley777]

IAF stands no chance in air-air battle if they come anywhere near the LoC / IB.

However, PAF needs to find a solution for their aircrafts launching stand off munitions from deep inside their airspace - without risking own aircrafts to indian AD.

Absolutely PAF needs to up their stand off munitions game.we should develop something in collaboration turkey like scalp sort of thing because China relies on rocket force on these sort of missions.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

Guess why it's “17” and not another number? ...

Pakistan chose the number "17" to indicate a natural progression from its F-16s.

 

[Oscar]

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They really like doing their animations and decently.

Hopefully no one takes this anymore than fan fiction

 

[Taimoor]

surely not get a super-advanced PL-17 on a type that cannot carry it even before China hs it operational in its own Air Force.

You may want to pin this.

 

[niubi]

Um... Deino, China has been using PL-17 missiles in PLAAF for a long, long time.

When it's confirmed in our level, it is not only old, it has already been superseded. PL-17's replacement level missile is surely in PLAAF service.

Basically PL-15s superior is the PL-16 which is thinner and likely an improvement in all parameters. PL-15 is now an ancient missile to China. It is used for practise so they can be expended.

PL-17 is the long range missile. Its replacement has been around for some time according to Chinese forum discussions. There is also another type of missile that outranges PL-17 and PL-17's replacement.

So basically think of PL-12 as beyond ancient. PL-15 is ancient.

PL-16 is standard "mid range". These days mid range = previous years ultra long range due to new energetics, optimised guidance and trajectory computing, new generations of rocket engines, better throttle control and energy (fuel) management, better materials, better aerodynamics. Also tricks like dual or n-pulse controlled rocket motors (can control how many times your engine switches on, how long for, how much force it gives your missile) which open up entire new dimensions of movement optimisation. PL-16's replacement is around. This is how old PL-15 is.

PL-17 is standard "long range" and has been around more than 10 years since J-16 shown to you all flying with it. When it was shown, it would be old. Nothing new is ever exposed. I repeat, nothing novel and new is EVER shown to the internet. Whatever we see online is older than old. Please reverse this whole philosophy of confirming things with official announcement and only when serial numbers are counted. When those happen, these things are boring old stuff.

PL-17's replacement is said on Chinese internet to have been around for some time now. They are not ready to show it at all though. Even PL-17 is rarely shown these days but every few times a year we get a few photos.

In China, every 2 years is a new generation of car. Legacy automakers average is 6 to 8 years per generation of car. 3 or 4 years for a mid life upgrade for the car model. China used to also do that with MLU around 1 year or 2 years. Now it's entire new generation in 2 to 3 years. With missiles and military technology, it is about the same cutthroat iteration pace. Old generations are kept around with some manufacturing capacity left for them for redundancy. Really old stock are completely fired off and tested, intercepted etc.

PL-17 to PAF is not going to be some surprise or remarkable thing. If the business and politics makes sense, it would be easily, too easily done tomorrow. The question is the politics and business. PL-17 is not some safe queen for China. It's from mid 2010 or much earlier.

 

[RajaBaja]

Um... Deino, China has been using PL-17 missiles in PLAAF for a long, long time.

When it's confirmed in our level, it is not only old, it has already been superseded. PL-17's replacement level missile is surely in PLAAF service.

Basically PL-15s superior is the PL-16 which is thinner and likely an improvement in all parameters. PL-15 is now an ancient missile to China. It is used for practise so they can be expended.

PL-17 is the long range missile. Its replacement has been around for some time according to Chinese forum discussions. There is also another type of missile that outranges PL-17 and PL-17's replacement.

So basically think of PL-12 as beyond ancient. PL-15 is ancient.

PL-16 is standard "mid range". These days mid range = previous years ultra long range due to new energetics, optimised guidance and trajectory computing, new generations of rocket engines, better throttle control and energy (fuel) management, better materials, better aerodynamics. Also tricks like dual or n-pulse controlled rocket motors (can control how many times your engine switches on, how long for, how much force it gives your missile) which open up entire new dimensions of movement optimisation. PL-16's replacement is around. This is how old PL-15 is.

PL-17 is standard "long range" and has been around more than 10 years since J-16 shown to you all flying with it. When it was shown, it would be old. Nothing new is ever exposed. I repeat, nothing novel and new is EVER shown to the internet. Whatever we see online is older than old. Please reverse this whole philosophy of confirming things with official announcement and only when serial numbers are counted. When those happen, these things are boring old stuff.

PL-17's replacement is said on Chinese internet to have been around for some time now. They are not ready to show it at all though. Even PL-17 is rarely shown these days but every few times a year we get a few photos.

In China, every 2 years is a new generation of car. Legacy automakers average is 6 to 8 years per generation of car. 3 or 4 years for a mid life upgrade for the car model. China used to also do that with MLU around 1 year or 2 years. Now it's entire new generation in 2 to 3 years. With missiles and military technology, it is about the same cutthroat iteration pace. Old generations are kept around with some manufacturing capacity left for them for redundancy. Really old stock are completely fired off and tested, intercepted etc.

PL-17 to PAF is not going to be some surprise or remarkable thing. If the business and politics makes sense, it would be easily, too easily done tomorrow. The question is the politics and business. PL-17 is not some safe queen for China. It's from mid 2010 or much earlier.

Your classification is way off. Missiles that "exist" and combat ready weapons are two different things. Today, in 2025:

1) PL-15 is considered a very long range BVR missile. The Chinese version is estimated around 250-300 KM's. True range will always be classified.
So the current standard the PL-15 broke was the 180-200 KM range (Meteor, AMRAAM D-3 and Russian missiles) all operated under this range and now even the US gave emergency funding for AMRAAM-E and AIM-260 platforms acquisition to rival or exceed the PL-15. So the current news standard range becomes 200-250 KM.

2) PL-16 is the successor of PL-15. Their dimensions are made for standard Chinese jets and stealth platform based deployment.

3) PL-17's current use case was to target enemy's support aircraft (AWACS, Tankers, ISR, etc) over 400 KM's away. The true range will always be classified. PL-17 will go through evolution as it's deployed in larger capacity in the future. It's dimensions make it more suitable for Flanker's based deployments.

 

[niubi]

Mid range of previous era = things like Aim-120B/C, R-77, PL-12 (SD-10). Range up to around 70km - 100km on paper (real range is mystery)

Mid range of current era = Aim-120D, PL-15, Meteor. Range up to 250km on paper (real range is mystery)

Long range of previous era = Aim-54, R-37. Range up to around 200km.

Long range of current era = PL-17, R-37M, Aim-174B. Range theorised by be excess of 350km.

There is no official classification of mid, long range. Only general sizes of missiles. Mid range of today outrange long range of yesterday.

I'm saying PL-17 is an old ass missile. It was shown publicly back around 2015. In 2015, the PL-17 was unlike what Deino and many stiff hats military "academics" online claim, as just being tested. It was old ass missile in 2015. When Chinese let you see the missile, that missile is old.

PL-17 only isn't as well known because the Chinese military rarely release photos and usually just low resolution video short clips and often taken completely out of context. PAF has given the internet more photos of J-10 than China has. Pakistan has only had the J-10 for a few years and only a few dozen. China has had J-10s for 2 decades and several hundred but Pakistan still gave the internet more and better photos of it.

PL-17 is old. It's superior is already in service according to Chinese sources on Chinese writing internet. PL-16 is PL-15's superior yes but it has also been around for longer than people on the english internet like to believe. PL-16 was discussed in Chinese military forums and leakers back in 2018!!

PL-16's replacement has recently been discussed. PL-17's replacement has recently been discussed. On top of those two, lets call PL-16+ and PL-17+, there is a third missile these discussions mentioned. It is a air to air weapon that outclasses and outranges PL-17+.

I understand these things are not conventional on english internet because we barely seen PL-17 and haven't seen PL-16 photos so it's hard to believe both these missiles already have superiors in service. The pace, breadth and depth of Chinese adaption, catchup, overtake, development etc is greater than even the optimists (or pessimists depending on your view and position) think.

All the stuff they are revealing later this week in parade is not the full set and not the greater set. Give it time and the absolute domination of this new MIC beast will become clear.

 

[niubi]

In traditional military schools, there are 5 conventional domains of "war".

1. Kinetic - with chemical/nuclear explosives, projectile weapons and all forms of weapons we think of in traditional sense, even biological. It is a mechanically physical thing, doing a mechanically physical damage.

2. Electronic - focus on making your electronic hardware and software resilient while depleting your opponent's network. This is the brains of all modern weapons whether mechanical (see kinetic weapons) or purely intended as a electromagnetic weapon.

3. Cyber - think your opponent's critical infrastructure network rather than a ECM system onboard a military aircraft. Making your opponent's financial institutions breakdown. Causing disruptions, failures and pressure induced explosions in your opponent's energy grid.

4. Trade - call it whatever but this domain is political and economic with the focus obviously on economy. Designed to weaker your opponent's economy. This one should be familiar to everyone now.

5. Psychological - this is the strongest arm of the western way of war. Its focus is political and aims to destroy the opponent from within and cause social chaos and disruption. Aiming to let your opponent destroy itself or at least reform and reshape itself into not an opponent. Since history in fact. It is the way England conquered India. Play your enemies against each other and let them negate and take each other out. Leverage everything. Use propaganda and lies and half truths. Exploit weaknesses in perception. Exploit weaknesses in human nature. This is only weaponised with a very clear and accurate understanding of human nature and the specific group of humans you're targeting (their culture and general behaviour).

The US has been surpassed in 1, 2 and 3. This won't be believed for some more time. 4 is about even. China is hopeless at 5. US and west is remarkable, unsurpassed at 5. Maybe Chinese people just look a certain way and westerners are preferred culturally all across the world, who knows. 5 has unlimited ways of engagement. 5 takes a long time and effort, much luck as well to reverse and create antidotes for. 5 however can also be one of the weakest forms of warfare because it can backfire or just be a useless neutral piece of nothing.

The US since 2000s focused on China. Since 2010s completely realised this genie of China challenging US hegemony needs to be addressed. Obama made good effort but US today only attempts 4 and mainly 5 against China. In recent weeks it is clear US is backing down a lot on 4 as well. China guarded herself quite well against 4. US is even hitting India with 4 while pretending it is due to India financing Russia via arbitraging russian energy production.

5 is Chinese weakness but understandable and expected. The establishment is always going to be destroyed by 1-4. The newly established will always be able to weaponise 5. The newcomer can never play 5.

Things like air to air missiles is easily hidden. It is not something like new fighters. China flew experimentals and tests in the desert for nearly a decade. Nearer to production prototypes (because what we saw in 2024 probably isn't early prototypes) cannot really be hidden or need to be. Sometimes you do need to show how far you've come on the big things. The small details are more important and more important to hide strategically.

PL-15 is a dime a dozen missile. It's a good missile but it is not an ultra long range missile unless we want to define anything over 200km as ultra long range. It is roughly similar in size to PL-12 which is completely classed as mid range missile in the previous 20th century definition. Whatever it is, PL-15 can be produced at a fast rate. It can be considered a standard utility. Europeans polishing off their Meteor and slowly sprinkling each one with fairy dust while Americans know speed is king and hurrying to resupply and create new longer range missiles. They know Aim-120D is like a early generation PL-15. Aim-260 is not even ready yet. Aim-174B is a stop gap to counter PL-17 but PL-17 is designed from ground up to be an optimised air to air. Air to air should be slender and long. A good one at least. SAMs are not optimised for air launching at altitude and speed.

Why do you think China sends Pakistan PL-15 missiles like sending over frying pans. China can make thousands a week if they wanted. It is not beholden to the market or a board.

 

[TallGuy]

Isn't Taimoor ALCM solution to that problem?

It is the Conventional solution of Raad III ALCM

 

[RajaBaja]

In traditional military schools, there are 5 conventional domains of "war".

1. Kinetic - with chemical/nuclear explosives, projectile weapons and all forms of weapons we think of in traditional sense, even biological. It is a mechanically physical thing, doing a mechanically physical damage.

2. Electronic - focus on making your electronic hardware and software resilient while depleting your opponent's network. This is the brains of all modern weapons whether mechanical (see kinetic weapons) or purely intended as a electromagnetic weapon.

3. Cyber - think your opponent's critical infrastructure network rather than a ECM system onboard a military aircraft. Making your opponent's financial institutions breakdown. Causing disruptions, failures and pressure induced explosions in your opponent's energy grid.

4. Trade - call it whatever but this domain is political and economic with the focus obviously on economy. Designed to weaker your opponent's economy. This one should be familiar to everyone now.

5. Psychological - this is the strongest arm of the western way of war. Its focus is political and aims to destroy the opponent from within and cause social chaos and disruption. Aiming to let your opponent destroy itself or at least reform and reshape itself into not an opponent. Since history in fact. It is the way England conquered India. Play your enemies against each other and let them negate and take each other out. Leverage everything. Use propaganda and lies and half truths. Exploit weaknesses in perception. Exploit weaknesses in human nature. This is only weaponised with a very clear and accurate understanding of human nature and the specific group of humans you're targeting (their culture and general behaviour).

The US has been surpassed in 1, 2 and 3. This won't be believed for some more time. 4 is about even. China is hopeless at 5. US and west is remarkable, unsurpassed at 5. Maybe Chinese people just look a certain way and westerners are preferred culturally all across the world, who knows. 5 has unlimited ways of engagement. 5 takes a long time and effort, much luck as well to reverse and create antidotes for. 5 however can also be one of the weakest forms of warfare because it can backfire or just be a useless neutral piece of nothing.

The US since 2000s focused on China. Since 2010s completely realised this genie of China challenging US hegemony needs to be addressed. Obama made good effort but US today only attempts 4 and mainly 5 against China. In recent weeks it is clear US is backing down a lot on 4 as well. China guarded herself quite well against 4. US is even hitting India with 4 while pretending it is due to India financing Russia via arbitraging russian energy production.

5 is Chinese weakness but understandable and expected. The establishment is always going to be destroyed by 1-4. The newly established will always be able to weaponise 5. The newcomer can never play 5.

Things like air to air missiles is easily hidden. It is not something like new fighters. China flew experimentals and tests in the desert for nearly a decade. Nearer to production prototypes (because what we saw in 2024 probably isn't early prototypes) cannot really be hidden or need to be. Sometimes you do need to show how far you've come on the big things. The small details are more important and more important to hide strategically.

PL-15 is a dime a dozen missile. It's a good missile but it is not an ultra long range missile unless we want to define anything over 200km as ultra long range. It is roughly similar in size to PL-12 which is completely classed as mid range missile in the previous 20th century definition. Whatever it is, PL-15 can be produced at a fast rate. It can be considered a standard utility. Europeans polishing off their Meteor and slowly sprinkling each one with fairy dust while Americans know speed is king and hurrying to resupply and create new longer range missiles. They know Aim-120D is like a early generation PL-15. Aim-260 is not even ready yet. Aim-174B is a stop gap to counter PL-17 but PL-17 is designed from ground up to be an optimised air to air. Air to air should be slender and long. A good one at least. SAMs are not optimised for air launching at altitude and speed.

Why do you think China sends Pakistan PL-15 missiles like sending over frying pans. China can make thousands a week if they wanted. It is not beholden to the market or a board.

Refer to my post above. I've defined proper standards for you there. That's what the world calls a standard and uses it as a standard. We can all have opinions but the world goes by combat ready weapons.

Last thing, you keep calling PL-17 "old technology" and same for PL-15. You don't know what's inside them and what technology set they use. So keep calling the latest "old technology" makes no sense. PL-17 was put in limited operational capacity. We will see a large scale deployment of PL-17 when Fujian becomes operational and they deploy a larger number of J-35's in the PLAN.

 

[Path-Finder]

They really like doing their animations and decently.

Hopefully no one takes this anymore than fan fiction

It will light sparks, enough to the point bollywood will spring into action.

 

[kimjongun]

Absolutely PAF needs to up their stand off munitions game.we should develop something in collaboration turkey like scalp sort of thing because China relies on rocket force on these sort of missions.

Thats what i have been saying for a long time..we serioudly lackk in stand off munitions....for the past two years IAF has been buying freakin every stand off munition there was on the market..either israeli, european , russian or french.....they were buying it...
tbh there purchase of rampage was excellent...now they getting LORA from israel...
they have been developing there own too like the DRDOs SAAW....i hope we have raad/taimoor ALCM in large numbers...

 

[side-winder]

Isn't Taimoor ALCM solution to that problem?

I meant to say - IAF fighters. If they can just fire their missiles staying clear of PL-15s - it's a problem for PAF.