Pakistan Navy Gun Boats - News / Discussion

[Ak01]

I think you want to know what ships we will buy? I can't predict what the exact king or future names. But let's try. A little background on what we need to protect and our enemy first:

We have a near 1100 km long shore line to protect, that's 400 KM deep making our EEZ and currently has two ports, Karachi and Gawader. These two ports will become regional trade hubs in the next few years under CPEC and maritime security has been brought out by the Chinese many times.

Indian navy by 2035 will have around 200 combat ships with 4 aircraft carriers, and that's what we have to fight.

For this, the Pakistan navy's strategy is around 50 combat ships. The idea is to create task forces that can independently fight battles and be spread across the 400 KM EEZ so that they aren't clustered near shores of Karachi to Gawader. The father they are, the harder it will be for IN to gain dominance. Our EEZ is 400 KM and that's a lot of depth.

These task forces will be lead by a guided missile destroyer like 055-P. Each task force will have 5-7 ships. After a lead guided missile destroyer, you will have missile frigates and may be a couple of missile corvettes also. This is the model we are going with. Under this plan, Pakistan will buy some advance missile frigates and build them locally with TOT also, same with missile corvettes we've already been working on. Guided missile destroyers will be purchased. May eventually be built locally but not under this strategy until 2035. Remember: 50 combat ships to face a 200+ ship navy and 4 aircraft carriers is still a small force. But the idea is that it will have enough strength to hold the enemy off and deny it supremacy especially when supported by a naval air fleet of about 2-3 dedicated squadrons.

Last issue: Funds! Currently, the government has said it will provide funds for naval transformation. Secondly, budget increases. By 2028, when the GDP gets rebalanced, the defense budget will increase too. If the Navy can start to get $ 3-5 billion for a few years, in increments, it can adapt this strategy and hit it's target number. We have NO way out of it or "other options". The 50 combat ships are needed.

Mashaallah Pakistan ka 055d bhi bana diya

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

The post in bold says "The current one's can guide only 2 missiles per channel. They make an arc of 90 degrees or whatever".

You read this crap and you cringe, who made these people "think tanks" who can't use technical terms and precise technical details to explain beyond some names and fancy terms from Wikipedia!!!

"They make an arc or whatever"

As an underdeveloped nation, we should continue to hide our strengths and work on our weaknesses. That's the best strategy.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

... Last issue: Funds! Currently, the government has said it will provide funds for naval transformation. Secondly, budget increases. By 2028, when the GDP gets rebalanced, the defense budget will increase too. If the Navy can start to get $ 3-5 billion for a few years, in increments, it can adapt this strategy and hit it's target number. We have NO way out of it or "other options". The 50 combat ships are needed.

Pakistan has 24 combat ships and 6 non-combat. If the current ones on order are completed by 2035, Pakistan will have a surface fleet of 59.

 

[Princeps]

HQ-16 has a guidance limitation, its to do with the illuminators.
The same limitation applies to shitl etc.

With the 054A later batches, the Chinese replaced the illuminators.

The current ones can only guide 2 missiles per channel. There are 4 channels, each only covering a set 90 degree arc or whatever, so effectively, a 054a can only guide 8 missiles in one go, now, the catch here is, they can only be 4 per side because each illuminator can only guide 2 missiles.

Now, IN has ships equipped with 8 brahmos, in a swarm attach, a tughril is DEAD. Full stop- this also applies to their ships, but usually you're launching 2 missiles per target, you're out of missiles before the IN is out of missiles. You also cannot fully defend all sectors either, effectively these ships are of a bygone era and should have been left there, they're not suited to modern high intensity conflicts

Yes the og MR-90 could only illuminate one target and guide 2 missiles but that's not necessarily the case with later variants or the HHQ-16 FCR. We know that ground HQ-16 FCR can simultaneously engage 4 targets and guide up to 8 missiles. And Rosoboronexport's brochure for Shtil-1 also advertises 2-12 simultaneous engagements based on system composition.

Specs of the naval HQ-16 FCR have never been revealed, but if we were to speculate, it seems likely that it can engage at least 2 targets with 2 missiles per target. This would mean 4 simultaneous engagements per side with a decent PK. Not great in this day and age but serviceable.

 

[Ak01]

Yes the og MR-90 could only illuminate one target and guide 2 missiles but that's not necessarily the case with later variants or the HHQ-16 FCR. We know that ground HQ-16 FCR can simultaneously engage 4 targets and guide up to 8 missiles. And Rosoboronexport's brochure for Shtil-1 also advertises 2-12 simultaneous engagements based on system composition.

i actually quote a chinese source on this, albeit its been years since i saw it now.

4 targets and 8 missiles seems about right.

Specs of the naval HQ-16 FCR have never been revealed, but if we were to speculate, it seems likely that it can engage at least 2 targets with 2 missiles per target. This would mean 4 simultaneous engagements per side with a decent PK. Not great in this day and age but serviceable.

im not sure if we can, i dont think there is ever a record of the Chinese upgrading their MR90's anywhere, ive tried looking. Instead, they ditched them for AESA based illuminators for their later batches. I think you'd be really stretching the system in such a case, i dont have high hopes-

 

[Zarvan]

I think the target was 22 of these gun boats. We need to let the littoral water policing be done by a larger number of these boats for ports, smuggling and other operations.

PN needs to modernize quickly. All combat ships should be upgraded to VLS systems, the one's that don't have them or have the smaller one's. Both China and Turkey have the new VLS systems that can be "installed" even if the original hull didn't have those. VLS must have 32 or more cells to pack a decent punch. Indian ships can easily send a silo of near 100 anti-ship missiles at a time so we should be prepared for it.

Similarly, 3 rings of air defense are needed around the Indian border and both our ports. First two can be NASAMs like, built locally on FAAZ-ER. The 3rd will be strategic systems like the HQ-9B and HQ-19.

We need Ships which have VLS for both Air Defense missiles and long range cruise missiles at least 1500 KM range ones.

 

[Ak01]

We need Ships which have VLS for both Air Defense missiles and long range cruise missiles at least 1500 KM range ones.

will u provide engines with decent sfc?

 

[Zarvan]

will u provide engines with decent sfc?

I can tell you several smaller countries who have build them with better ranges. Either you are saying this nation doesn't have brains or I know what you are suggesting.

 

[Zarvan]

will u provide engines with decent sfc?

Get from Turkiye if you are so incapable. Because Turkieye is very close to test their new Cruise Missile which from start has the range of 1000 KM.

 

[Rebirth]

Its a gunship. Its meant for anti-crime, smuggling, narcotics and piracy operations. It will likely have a 25-30mm RCWS (Aselsan STOP or SMASH) with probable manned gunpoints and possibly two 12.7mm RCWS. It can overwhelm criminals a pirates but isnt a war fighting ship. Its a policing ship. The benefits here is they will offload the smaller ships like Azmats and Yarmooks to be more active in war efforts and decrease cost of such operations by not needing to field medium to large tonnage ships for the task.

Its also good to counter any attempt of enemy to send its spies or special forces.

 

[RajaBaja]

We need Ships which have VLS for both Air Defense missiles and long range cruise missiles at least 1500 KM range ones.

We will have missiles like Smash and Babur between 700- 1000 KM range initially and in long term even 1000+ KM's to target deep East inside India like our military leadership made a strategic statements recently.

Air defense is a domain where we lack localization. FAAZ project must give us results so we can built a LOMAD locally. Otherwise AD systems will be 100% foreign defense purchase and very expensive.

Hopefully, when there is a second strike capability put into the deep ocean, pressure on Pak navy ships will be reduced. We can't wait further, a second strike capability to complete our nuclear triad is must now.

Pakistan has 24 combat ships and 6 non-combat. If the current ones on order are completed by 2035, Pakistan will have a surface fleet of 59.

Keep in mind, by 2035, a few ships may be retired. That's how they did the math of 50 combat ships functional. US and some other countries do this strategy of "early retirement" of some assets, so they can be kept for a long-term war as reserves.

 

[Aziqbal]

looks decent

keep building them we need 12 of them at least

 

[Princeps]

im not sure if we can, i dont think there is ever a record of the Chinese upgrading their MR90's anywhere, ive tried looking. Instead, they ditched them for AESA based illuminators for their later batches. I think you'd be really stretching the system in such a case, i dont have high hopes-

China first got their hands on MR-90 with the Sovremennys that they directly purchased from Russia in 1999 and early 2000s. After this they built the Type 052b destroyers, an indigenous design but with Shtil and MR-90s bought directly from Russia.

Now the Type 054As come after all this, operationalized in 2008 with the reverse engineered/ Indigenized HQ-16 and new FCR/illuminators that look a bit different from the older MR-90s even outwardly(photo attached)

It is not all that far fetched to imagine that while copying the MR-90, they improved it, considering it's originally a 1980s system, and we know that the land based HQ-16 FCR which was developed around the same time is capable of engaging more targets and has more channels, and that this really isn't that hard to achieve with a Phased array even a passive one.

The last clue is in the fact that while MLU-ing the Type 052Bs and older Sovremennys, they replaced the MR-90s with the HQ-16 FCRs. Proving that they aren't mutually compatible and/or the HQ-16 FCRs are an improvement.

 

[Zarvan]

We will have missiles like Smash and Babur between 700- 1000 KM range initially and in long term even 1000+ KM's to target deep East inside India like our military leadership made a strategic statements recently.

Air defense is a domain where we lack localization. FAAZ project must give us results so we can built a LOMAD locally. Otherwise AD systems will be 100% foreign defense purchase and very expensive.

Hopefully, when there is a second strike capability put into the deep ocean, pressure on Pak navy ships will be reduced. We can't wait further, a second strike capability to complete our nuclear triad is must now.



Keep in mind, by 2035, a few ships may be retired. That's how they did the math of 50 combat ships functional. US and some other countries do this strategy of "early retirement" of some assets, so they can be kept for a long-term war as reserves.

Your post is entirely focused on 2nd strike capability. Yes we need that but that can be even filled with an AIP submarine which has 6 to 8 VLS to carry ballistic missiles like the one South Korea has made. Or maybe China can design a nuclear submarine which is not that big in size and can carry 8 to 10 ballistic missiles with MIRV with range of 3000 KM. My issue with Navy is that I think we seriously lack in our conventional firepower when it comes to our Navy. Our Navy cannot match ship to ship with India. But we also not let the difference between Pakistan Navy and Indian Navy 6 to 10 times. We need to be smart and for that Destoyers and Heavy Frigates around 20 to 24 combined which can carry at least 16 to 20 Cruise Missiles along with 32 to 48 VLS with quad pack option for Air Defense plus develop 1500 to 2000 KM range cruise missile. Plus, lot of missile boats which also are carrying cruise missiles with 800 to 1000 KM range.

 

[RajaBaja]

Your post is entirely focused on 2nd strike capability. Yes we need that but that can be even filled with an AIP submarine which has 6 to 8 VLS to carry ballistic missiles like the one South Korea has made. Or maybe China can design a nuclear submarine which is not that big in size and can carry 8 to 10 ballistic missiles with MIRV with range of 3000 KM. My issue with Navy is that I think we seriously lack in our conventional firepower when it comes to our Navy. Our Navy cannot match ship to ship with India. But we also not let the difference between Pakistan Navy and Indian Navy 6 to 10 times. We need to be smart and for that Destoyers and Heavy Frigates around 20 to 24 combined which can carry at least 16 to 20 Cruise Missiles along with 32 to 48 VLS with quad pack option for Air Defense plus develop 1500 to 2000 KM range cruise missile. Plus, lot of missile boats which also are carrying cruise missiles with 800 to 1000 KM range.

My posts focus about 80% on conventional naval power. In fact, the posts from the past two days have primarily been on PN's strategy to field 50 combat naval ships. Then there is the 20% strategic part, we must focus on.

That is enhancing the nuclear deterrence. Indian military now thinks with 3 layers of strategic air defenses by S-400 and then local LOMADS, they can neutralize the nuke threat coming from Pakistan over it's land geography. We don't have a second strike capability that can re-establish that deterrence that let's say if India launched 1000 Brahmos, we can hit back from the ocean and take out all major ports and cities from Mumbai to further East. That's why it's so critical.

Then there is the need for conventional second strike, submarines with larger VLS missile load that you mentioned. So conventional ships + missile attack sub + second strike nuke capability completes our navy's full offensive picture.