Pakistan UAVs News & Discussions

[That_Guy]

5 million USD is cheap?

Yes.

Considering the alternative is a manned aircraft worth tens of millions of dollars.

 

[That_Guy]

My argument was not about sophistication. It was about complexity of maintenance because they are large serious aircraft (and not toys) with lots of electronics, avionics, and spare needs.

Sophistication tends to determine level of maintenance. While correlation does not imply causation, it doesn't dismiss it either.

They are serious aircraft, but so is the Ababeel MR-5 quadcopter drone. Any system the military acquires that can carry sensors and weapons is a serious aircraft.

 

[Ak01]

Yes.

Considering the alternative is a manned aircraft worth tens of millions of dollars.

The logic behind uav usage isnt airframe loss, its to prevent crew loss.

5m/aircraft is also what BD paid for its F-7's. Does this mean you can throw these at whatever then?

On the flip side, if those tens of millions of dollar aircraft are more survivable, the value proposition changes- why spend 5m on a 'disposable' aircraft when for double, or triple i can send in something that will for sure make it out

 

[Ak01]

Akinci is nowhere close to the others.

TB2 in particular is built as a cheap MALE drone, meant to be pumped out on mass.

WL1 and WL2 are not that sophisticated, compared to the Akinci, and that's on purpose. While they're impressive, the Akinci outperforms them in every regard (except payload capacity, I believe).

How can you assert that its more sophisticated though?

PAF Akinci's are equipped with EO/IR systems, no radars etc, same situation with PAF's WL2's.

Both use turbines (id probably even argue that the WL-2s CPFH may even be more depending on the kinda turbine used!), the only reason the akinci is able to outperform them is because it has a second engine. This doesnt mean the WL2s are not sophisticated, expensive or would sting to lose.

 

[Ak01]

From my understanding, the level of sensors, weapons packages, as well as the fact that it flies at a higher altitude since it's a HALE drone, while the other's are MALE drones.

Attritable, doesn't mean one time use. It simply means that losing it isn't a massive loss. Their price tags are low for a reason.

the reason why the TB2 has a 'low' price tag is because its about as barebones and fundamental as a drone gets. It carries nothing special, its a very barebones kinda drone, equivalent to strapping a tdl and a couple of missiles to SMK, it forms effectively the lowes tier of ops, which is why u only see it used against insurgents. Its probably also the cheapest to operate of any drone thanks to its simplicity- however, if it was due to be attritable, the Ukrainians would have carried on using them, not stopping the use once they started to get lost.

 

[Ak01]

View attachment 145544
The statement that "drones don't require as much maintenance as fighter jets" is problematic in many ways.
Firstly, drones could mean DJI FPV or X-37. A drone of an FPV class has basically no maintenance requirement, while a drone like Akinci is basically an aircraft that is much more complex than even light aircraft like Cessna 172 or something. Remember, that the Akinci is running two turboprops, and has many many complex avionics. So its maintenance is not going to be cheap by any standard.
Secondly, comparing drone maintenance to fighter jet maintenance is kind of unfair. Jets operate for a few hours and are running turbofans. UCAVs like Akinci are running turboprops and operate for hours.
The maintenance for something like Akinci is likely closer to a private Beechcraft E90. Remember, you are also importing spares from Turkey.

Just wanted to pushback on the oft-repeated drones are cheap blanket statement a little.

Yeah, people dont realise but a PT-6 Overhaul, depending on how deep it gets can cost upwards of $1m per engine, and mean months of AOG. Thats just for one engine, lets not even start to look at all of the other onboard systems. Luckily though, PT-6s go quite a while between OH.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

What are the values in these UAVs if they can't bomb deep inside Afganistan to take out HVTs, logistics, infrastructure, arms depot, training centers, leadership, business assets etc. day in and day out? Pakistan behaves like an extremely weak state vis-a-vis Afganistan. Why? Is it because the Pak Deep State earns tons of $s due to Afganistan's being a 100% narcotic state?

 

[Oscar]

What happened to SATUMA and other players?
GIDS(pronounced gidhs) sab kha gaya aur dakaar bhi nahin li?

The question isn’t so much so of whether $5 million is cheap - it’s whether they would be willing to invert $5 million in a Pakistani product?
NO
They would not invest $5 million but instead provide $500k for the complete R&D and ask for the same result and the ask if it can be built for $250k.
After which they will ask if they can get $50k for representing it to the fauj and selling it and then sell it actually for $1.5 million and divide it as “commission”.

Why do you think all of these disparities exist in models?

Pakistan HAD ALL THE EXPERTISE and access for aerodynamic design. It has ENOUGH for systems integration as well. What was missing was sensors which are more difficult to do inhouse or procure directly at times so what the TB.2 brings is just that turk key package.
Otherwise you could have it all built in country.
Only if all the different players actually wanted to work together and if there was incentive to not try and short change local teams and also jaded local teams not act in constant competition and loggerheads with each other.

But then that is the toxic nature of those waters and they’re where they are at. Unable to actually do little real R&D other than license building, reverse engineering or in the minority do minor derivative enhancements

 

[JamD]

Yes.

Considering the alternative is a manned aircraft worth tens of millions of dollars.

Actually, TB2 is a pretty overpriced drone. It is WORTH maybe half a million. However, procurement price is not what we are discussing are we? So let's not distract ourselves.

Sophistication tends to determine level of maintenance. While correlation does not imply causation, it doesn't dismiss it either.

Ok fair. But you're not really saying anything specific, just sweeping generalized statements. Here are specifics
Akinci: Two turboprops, tonnes of computers and spares, imported from Turkey
WL2: One turboprop, tonnes of computers and spares, imported from China
CH4: One aviation grade piston engine, tonnes of computers and spares, imported from China
TB2: One aviation grade piston engine, tonnes of computers and spares, imported from Turkey

Let's not dilly dally, I was commenting on your statement that drones are cheaper to maintain than fighters. I said it was unfair to compare them to fighters. And most of the MALE drones in Pakistan's service aren't cheaper to maintain than small to medium sized-aircraft anyway due to them being:
a. serious aircraft with all of the parts of a traditional aircraft, like engines, maybe hydrualics, oil systems, landing gears
b. special equipment like turrets, computers, and datalink systems not need for manned systems, which add maintenance cost and complexity, especially since they rely entirely on imported parts.

They are serious aircraft, but so is the Ababeel MR-5 quadcopter drone. Any system the military acquires that can carry sensors and weapons is a serious aircraft.

What? I'm sorry but at this point you're just doing whataboutism that isn't even correct. Please read above what I wrote above when I meant serious aircraft. Please don't insult my and the reader's intelligence.

What happened to SATUMA and other players?
GIDS(pronounced gidhs) sab kha gaya aur dakaar bhi nahin li?

The question isn’t so much so of whether $5 million is cheap - it’s whether they would be willing to invert $5 million in a Pakistani product?
NO
They would not invest $5 million but instead provide $500k for the complete R&D and ask for the same result and the ask if it can be built for $250k.
After which they will ask if they can get $50k for representing it to the fauj and selling it and then sell it actually for $1.5 million and divide it as “commission”.

Why do you think all of these disparities exist in models?

Pakistan HAD ALL THE EXPERTISE and access for aerodynamic design. It has ENOUGH for systems integration as well. What was missing was sensors which are more difficult to do inhouse or procure directly at times so what the TB.2 brings is just that turk key package.
Otherwise you could have it all built in country.
Only if all the different players actually wanted to work together and if there was incentive to not try and short change local teams and also jaded local teams not act in constant competition and loggerheads with each other.

But then that is the toxic nature of those waters and they’re where they are at. Unable to actually do little real R&D other than license building, reverse engineering or in the minority do minor derivative enhancements

This is all scary accurate.

Basically whenever NESCOM sees a private company making something nice, they come in and say "now we will make it inefficiently", then shut that company's business down. SATUMA is a perfect example of this. They used to sell so many systems to the Army. Now they have no customer because the PA would rather buy from China, Turkey, and sometimes NESCOM. In a way it is kind of sad, had NESCOM let SATUMA work PA would've had a nicer local option. But like you said, NESCOM went nope, now I do it poorly with more kickbacks for everyone lol.

 

[Sparten]

Reason is easy. No orders. When NESCOM can barely convince PAF to buy S2s, how will they plan to make a bigger UCAV and get PAF to buy that? You just don't need development, you also need production, and iterative improvement. Look at how many TB2s have been produced.

When it comes to UCAVs, PAF is quite like the IAF and Tejas.

PAF doesn't want an Army drone.

 

[JamD]

PAF doesn't want an Army drone.

What's an army drone?

 

[Asfandyar Bhittani]

Is 20-003 the highest photographed serial number of a Pak Wl2 available online? Since there have reports for years of 48 total being planned.

 

[TallGuy]

My argument was not about sophistication. It was about complexity of maintenance because they are large serious aircraft (and not toys) with lots of electronics, avionics, and spare needs.

my understanding is that Turkish drones are ear marked in peacetime for operations in Baluchistan/Afghanistan. there will come the day you will see them operating inside IOK against misc Indian military targets.

I may be wrong!

 

[Sparten]

What's an army drone?

A drone made by a contractor whose primary customer is the PA. I think lots of people don't realise the institutional aversion the PAF has to buying kit from PA suppliers. Hence why PAD wenyt for Falco ToT in the late 2000's rather than work with SAUTAMA, ID and others since they thought those were Army contractors
Thank God the PAF already had an ALCM program on, but the Army really wanted them to look into carrying an air launched version of the Babar CM (F16 and JF17 centerline could carry it) which would have provided some very long range strike capability, but no.
They have also show nom interest in making an ALBM from the smaller BM, Abdali would give us something akin to Kinzhal and again the Jeff's and now J10 could carry it, but no thought to it.

 

[Sparten]

As an aside, the SATUMA (they are still around) Flamingo is the unsung hero of the WoT. It was an artillery spotter drone with unsual long endurance for type and was presse into service as a MALE UAV, a task it could do. but not great, but still provided troops with invaluable support during some critical times.