PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[Yasser76]

What happened to the guy in the centre? He should have been the OC of no.15 but apparantely its someone else now.

Not sure, but one thing is certain, if you told me 5 years ago that the most sought after Squadron commands in whole of PAF would be No 8 and No 15 and not No 5 or No 9 I would never have believed you.....

 

[RajaBaja]

No the crux was diversifying your fleet equipment so you won't get bottleneck with one supplier as a pressurizing tactic.

Diversification is critical. But one should understand it's true meanings also.
- We get Chinese JF-17's and J-10C's we can operate without any worry of sanctions or their use. We built majority of the JF-17 in house also and it's supply chain is well established.

- Do we now want to go back to the US F-16's, get lower end AMRAAMs and get lower end radars? We had a big beef with the US in 1980's as our first set of F-16's lacked in radar specs. No matter how many expensive upgrades we pay for, we will never come even with JF-17 and J-10C's capability. Today it's PL-15, tomorrow it could be PL-17.

Does this gap means we still need diversification? Also, remember, the "diversification" is a fancy term for us. Why? Our F-16's, a big majority until Clinton's time, were paid by the US FMS funding. So can we use this term?

Now final thoughts, diversification in Pakistan's case, with our starting up economy and finances means ONLY one thing. Establish a local industry of a certain platform for the future. A platform that gives us what we need (5th gen, stealth, single engine) and it can be built in Pakistan while we can get some initial numbers from China. For that, you partner with China on one of the projects, build capability by getting engineers trained on Chinese dynamic manufacturing and bring them back, re-configure the JF-17 manufacturing line to produce a new design and start producing it. You can further that 5th gen design into 6th gen. This process is called "capability maturity modeling". Note: China must know during negotiations that we want to own this piece of technology for which we are partnering in X project. So when we want, independently or with China, we can upgrade to X,Y,Z weapons or to 6th gen.

Secondly, Turkish aviation industry is our second best option for buying alternative platform. But they are 10 years away.

We aren't big enough to "diversify vendors". You do this when your scale is larger like Michael was showing. The world will NOT give you 5th gen and 6th gen. Take a look at Arab nations. They have trillions invested in the West. Yet, not ONE nation has ONE F-35!

KSA was being shifted around by Japan to disallow them entry into Japan-UK 6th gen project. The funny thing is, they will take KSA's billions for R&D or to give "finished" lower end product. But they won't make any Muslim nation a part of the entire process from R to D!

 

[Cesur]

What happened to the guy in the centre? He should have been the OC of no.15 but apparantely its someone else now.

Maybe he has moved on to J-35 and training in China?

 

[MH.Yang]

Yes! this idea that the world is closed off to dealing with pak is a major misconception.
The F-16V door is always open, the question is, will you pay for it and also will you meet the requirements the US sets out in terms of protecting the tech onboard? They were available during Aman's tenure, available now too, just a matter of who will pay?

Europe is actually a pretty reliable supplier, i dont think we've had any major issues with Europe, especially considering all 3 forces use European vendors for their major strategic projects. The Pak Army has setup a MASSIVE custom electronic warfare network, it is a HUGE project worth billions- whos the prime contractor? A European firm.

The Pak Navy has very likely- i can say with near 100% certainty selected Fincantieri to build its SWATS. This means Fincantieri will also likely build PN's domestic Sub with them. They also had U212NFS on offer to PN, which i suspect we will see in the waters of Karachi in the coming decades. Heck, whatever sub PN chooses next, will carry German Fuel cells, while our current agostas rely almost exclusively on Atlas Elektronik for their sensor suite and weapons.

For the PAF, they're turning to Europe for SAM's now, not to mention the PAF's surv network is like so heavily US/German based, with now some Chinese to replace older units, but PAF deploys TRML and TPS series heavily, again, without too much concern.

The PAF had also seriously evaluated a Typhoon offer, there was a ton of proponents for it too, the issue was funding, i bet if FATF had'nt cucked us, we would have been operating Typhoons and Meteors instead of J-10's, also, in larger numbers since the UK had offered their Tranche 1's to us for free as part of the deal.



What good is no usage restrictions when the aircraft cant be supported? Iran has no usage restrictions, but their fleet is rarely seeing the skies.

I also always find this usage restriction claim a bit funny like we did not scramble F-16s against US assets during OBL raid, or that we did not literally strike and shoot down Indians during SR. Infact, i always ask anyone who makes this claim, if there are restrictions on the use of F-16s against India, who are the 500 AMRAAMs for? The Taliban? Did the US make the largest export amraam agreement at the time for fun to sit on shelves?

If you are referring to a lack of A2G weaponry, then this is a fault of our own. The yanks are concerned about us turning F-16s into nuke slingers, which is a valid concern considering all the whispers and murmurs that came out. I remember the Americans starting to worry that we were modifying Harpoons into cruise missiles for deep strike/nuke delivery. Like, lets take accountability where its due.


This is effectively impossible, we have no industrial base and import literally everything down to the last screw from China.


Europe. The Typhoon.

But lets make the case here, again, do i fault the US for wanting to be careful with leakage of sensitive data? No. Pakistani opsec/cybersec is NONEXISTENT. Literally the J-10 contract got leaked. I have my hands on a leak from the Pak side exposing MBDA contractors in country, their passports, hotels, even heck, the details of their parents and the contracts too. Can we be trusted lol is the question. Some members on this forum with their experience in the industry had made it pretty clear, Pak/PAC/PAF is a data breach waiting to happen. I bet you there are SO many moles infesting the forces already its insane.

What do we have to integrate anyway- either REK or Raad. Raad is not even on the J-10, i doubt any exporter will want us to use their jets for nuke delivery. SOW/REK can be integrated with nothing from the OEM. The Turks, the Philippinos etc all use Pylon adapters controlled by iPads which release the weapons when needed. Happy days.

But also, what weapons have we integrated, im yet to see J-10s carry anything other than the PL combo. MAYBE pak pressured REK integration because we used to get shaken down on the FT series.


Answered above, we cant even integrate our own weapons into JF-17 without OEM support. We dont have the source codes etc. Infact, JamD has shared the story countless times here, where we tried to integrate a local payload and the mission computers locked up. We cant do anything without Chinese assistance or consent.


This is flawed. All we can do is assemble with some mild fabrication.
You say it yourself, we can negotiate for the ASSEMBLY line- so all of the inputs still need to come from China. All we can do is final assembly, its a different matter if you're telling me we will fabricate the TRM's and antennas ourselves, setup composite shops, bring engine manufacturing in house, use domestic steel, build every nut and bolt in house. But no, we wont. In the best case scenario, lets pretend China said yeah here u go heres the assembly line...we're still having to call up mr Xi asking him to send us a shipment of screws because someone misplaced them. We're wholly dependant and that creates avenues for exploitation, but beyond this, we just cannot do anything ourselves. Future sustainment will be such a HUGE headache once China starts dwindling down on J-10 use, remember, for us a J-10 buy is long term, for them, its their lowest tier fighter, that will probably be the first to go when it does, meaning we will become reliant on cannibalised airframes to sustain, like India is with Mirages, or how we were with our own. Nobody likes buying aircraft the designing country doesn't use, it creates a sense of security. The PAF always picked the same cfg's as the USAF for its F-16s. The UAEAF refused to buy F-16XL's and killed off the program unless the US committed into buying a set number too.



Europe Europe Europe.

Industrially, Europe is stuck. They can produce amazing kit and all, but they find themselves not being able to buy enough due to their smaller forces. Guys like us are goldmines, we will buy tons, bring them jobs and keep their industry alive, its in their strategic interests. The UK was desperate for someone to buy Typhoons from them.


Its simple, our wars will NEVER last more than 2-3 weeks, if the US sees Pak getting steamrolled, its not going to let that happen, we have seen the way the US operates with Ukraine, it is not in Americas interest to let Pak fall, which is why it has not let that happen.

My suggestions are simple, diversify, keep the US fleet there, JF-17 fleet there, and look to Europe, especially via the EFT, considering the countries are planning on using it to 2060 and it has like 2-3 upgrade progs in dev already. J-10s have happened now, and it is what it is.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP79R00890A000700060006-8.pdf

Published 1956- Pakistan, an Ally with Liabilities.

Our position on the global stage was our own fault.

Its all shifting dynamics, from what i understood, it is only now we have managed to get a backbone. I had made a joke that it is always better to keep a nashai hooked by dripfeeding your stock to him, to which i was told "yes, but now the nashai knows how to deal with it properly"...and now we see a JF-17 where PAF is trying to move away from China and more toward the Turks...

First, even if the J-10C were discontinued, Pakistan would not have any maintenance or spare parts issues with its J-10CEs. The PLAAF has 700 J-10s, including over 300 J-10Cs.

Second, China has never extorted money from Pakistan. Whether it's the Type 054AP, the PL-15E, or the J-10CE, the Chinese government has always offered them to Pakistan at exceptionally favorable prices. Giving Pakistan the best price has become a standard practice, so how could extortion be an option?

Third, the J-10C is being phased out by the PLAAF, and it's a fact that new J-10 variants are unlikely to emerge. This is inevitable as the PLAAF transitions to 5G/6G fighters. However, the J-10C will continue to see subsystem upgrades, and don't forget the PLAAF's 700 J-10s.

 

[m52k85]

First, even if the J-10C were discontinued, Pakistan would not have any maintenance or spare parts issues with its J-10CEs. The PLAAF has 700 J-10s, including over 300 J-10Cs.

Second, China has never extorted money from Pakistan. Whether it's the Type 054AP, the PL-15E, or the J-10CE, the Chinese government has always offered them to Pakistan at exceptionally favorable prices. Giving Pakistan the best price has become a standard practice, so how could extortion be an option?

Third, the J-10C is being phased out by the PLAAF, and it's a fact that new J-10 variants are unlikely to emerge. This is inevitable as the PLAAF transitions to 5G/6G fighters. However, the J-10C will continue to see subsystem upgrades, and don't forget the PLAAF's 700 J-10s.

China extorting prices is a new one for me. One only needs to compare the J-10 deal with India's Rafale deal to see whos extorting who.

 

[m52k85]

my view is simple, trust no one and diversify.

I recently ended up bumping into an Air Commodore who retired very recently.

His entire job was overseeing RD-93 MRO- he was an expert on engines and supported programs as far back as the F-6/Mirage, up to JF-17 which was his recent assignment.

He even inaugurated the RD-93 MRO facility.

We had a brief chat, due for another, but the situation is grim... when we talked about China, "Paisa hi inn ka sab kuch hai, Paisa hi inn ka khuda hai". Just a heads up we're not allowed to buy most components, including spares and equipment for the engines from the OEM. We must go via China, who does not give us the real part numbers to prevent us going to Klimov to procure, they then mark up the prices significantly and provide to us...when they're not pushing more profitable/beneficial solutions to themselves, like forcing WS-13 down PAF throat who refused, instead, jacking RD93 part prices up, again...to pressure the PAF in bending the knee.

Theres so, so many stories like this its a normal occurence.

Bhai hamare baron ne aik kaam dur andeshi ka kia jo ab phal de raha hai. It will be unwise to chop at that tree now.

 

[RajaBaja]

First, even if the J-10C were discontinued, Pakistan would not have any maintenance or spare parts issues with its J-10CEs. The PLAAF has 700 J-10s, including over 300 J-10Cs.

Second, China has never extorted money from Pakistan. Whether it's the Type 054AP, the PL-15E, or the J-10CE, the Chinese government has always offered them to Pakistan at exceptionally favorable prices. Giving Pakistan the best price has become a standard practice, so how could extortion be an option?

Third, the J-10C is being phased out by the PLAAF, and it's a fact that new J-10 variants are unlikely to emerge. This is inevitable as the PLAAF transitions to 5G/6G fighters. However, the J-10C will continue to see subsystem upgrades, and don't forget the PLAAF's 700 J-10s.

This "vendor diversification" talk is useless in our case. We are 80% Chinese weapon systems now, capability wise a whole generation ahead of what the US or Europe would offer us! Take a look at India, no matter what happens with others, Russia is still their strategic partner. Even America understands that fully now.

Chinese have been very good to us, to fulfil our defense needs, price and capability wise. Never forget, 1990's - NO BVR to 2025 PL-15 and 6-0 score. Never forget who stood by you in tough times!

China is the most modern economy and the largest R&D nation. We need Pakistani engineers trained on Chinese process engineering and partnership in a couple of key projects that will result in a Pakistani specific single engine stealth jet and local made current generation, long range SAM systems as well as other products.

China like the US, spends over hundred billion dollars on technology R&D every year and they have to do it for their defense industry. Why do we need to re-invent the wheel? We need capability improvement to build our industry so we need training and partnership with China.

 

[MH.Yang]

This "vendor diversification" talk is useless in our case. We are 80% Chinese weapon systems now, capability wise a whole generation ahead of what the US or Europe would offer us! Take a look at India, no matter what happens with others, Russia is still their strategic partner. Even America understands that now fully.

We need to partner with China in a couple of strategic projects for us, as it's the largest and most modern R&D economy and our strategic partner. They've been very fair to us, price and capability wise.

We need Pakistani engineers trained on Chinese process engineering and partnership in a couple of key projects that will result in a Pakistani specific single engine stealth jet and local made current generation, long range SAM systems as well as other products.

China like the US, spends over hundred billion dollars on technology R&D every year and they have to do it for their defense industry. Why do we need to re-invent the wheel? We need capability improvement to build our industry so we need training and partnership with China.

In my opinion, Pakistan's military procurement should adhere to a single principle: purchasing the most powerful weapons for the least possible cost.

China-Pakistan relations are stable, and the two countries have been allies for nearly a century. There's no need to be suspicious of such frivolous matters. Diversification will only hinder the integration of information-based combat systems and increase the difficulty of logistical scupport.

 

[bravo_1]

when we talked about China, "Paisa hi inn ka sab kuch hai, Paisa hi inn ka khuda hai".

Oh sir u haven't heard about k3 power plant in Karachi. My friends did a RFO thier in which basically they maintain all the machines annually etc. They said Chinese charge thousands of dollars for simple tools and broken parts even though we prefer German tools and we have some in there but basically we cant produce and introduce our tools made by our engineers that too in very little cost bcz of contract or whatever

 

[Oscar]

Your post is valid, but if financing is needed, it can be arranged via EXIMP banks, both in Europe and USA.

Boeing 777s were financed via USA EXIMP banks back in the day even though Airbus offered A330s to Musharraf government and financing on much better terms.....but because Musharraf wanted to be in US Lap, they went with 777s which turned out to be not effective for PIA anyway.

Recently, USA based financers are providing financing/loans for Reko Diq......even though for a very long time no USA based financer provided loans to Pakistani projects...and Barrick is not a USA company....it was always Chinese, Japanese, or ADB.

European defense industry is desperate to survive and they would rather sell weapons on financing than let their potential sales and production lines slow down. Manufacturing and traditional defense companies are under a lot of stress now as European defense budgets are no where near USA ones.

For USA, it would always be sanction prone, so you have to balance that. PAF must go for F-16V upgrades if it is available and make finances available. Defense procurement is alway long term, and what might sound like 2 billion USD upfront is basically you buying insurance against a very vile and fascist neighbor. Procure enough spares and ammunition to keep the fleet worthy even if sanctioned for the next decade. That is the fastest way to get a Meteor comparable fighter squadrons in numbers quickly and keeping your existing infrastructure worthy.

There is something strange that has been happening in the Forex market....SBP is buy any excess dollars from the open market as there are very little available in the open market for common buyer. This tells two things, one that rupee is over valued actually at 285/USD and there is excess supply from remittances and subdued import bills. The other that SBP needs dollars for something else other than usual loan payments. Which points to one thing that SBP is building cash USD reserves for defense purchases.

Those banks are also influenced by geopolitics - nothing lives in a bubble.

 

[Oscar]

Oh sir u haven't heard about k3 power plant in Karachi. My friends did a RFO thier in which basically they maintain all the machines annually etc. They said Chinese charge thousands of dollars for simple tools and broken parts even though we prefer German tools and we have some in there but basically we cant produce and introduce our tools made by our engineers that too in very little cost bcz of contract or whatever

Their radio components were of extremely trashy quality and when you ask them to improve they would ask for exorbitant prices at times we checked using a US company and the US company was quoted 1/10th of the price Pakistani ones were.

At the end of the day, that is the reality of it. Everyone is in it for the money and if you are not in a position of power then you are a sucker and the Chinese being good salespeople know this.

Now that doesn’t mean they fleece you everywhere and they will offer very good terms on loans or prices on hardware they no longer consider latest. But at the end that is what drives indigenous projects however because you are - and I apologize - a harami qaum - you are willing to cut your own futures in indigenous efforts just to make a buck and provide your children houses in New Haven Connecticut.

 

[bravo_1]

At the end of the day, that is the reality of it. Everyone is in it for the money and if you are not in a position of power then you are a sucker and the Chinese being good salespeople know this.

IMO its more than that, basically we lack the true industrialization and its diplomacy we just bend the knee for whatever we bring here and manufacture. I remember when PAF initiated the project Azm the ACM Sohail Aman emphasize too much for manufacturing of basic machinery and tools in inaugurated technology park earlier in Kamra but ofc project didn't go well and now we have a PFX and i dont know what they have in mind in context of industrial manufacturing.

 

[nang2]

Their radio components were of extremely trashy quality and when you ask them to improve they would ask for exorbitant prices at times we checked using a US company and the US company was quoted 1/10th of the price Pakistani ones were.

At the end of the day, that is the reality of it. Everyone is in it for the money and if you are not in a position of power then you are a sucker and the Chinese being good salespeople know this.

Now that doesn’t mean they fleece you everywhere and they will offer very good terms on loans or prices on hardware they no longer consider latest. But at the end that is what drives indigenous projects however because you are - and I apologize - a harami qaum - you are willing to cut your own futures in indigenous efforts just to make a buck and provide your children houses in New Haven Connecticut.

Unless Pakistanis are just a group of idiots, they would go for the option that offers the most benefits with the least cost. So, what if Pakistan becomes a complete "ally" of US, like Qatar? Wouldn't it be much better, besides the icing on the cake of paying only 1/10 of the price for radio components? Maybe by now, Pakistan would be flying squadrons of F-35s. Wouldn't that be great? I think nowadays, many Iranians are having the same dream, too.

 

[Michael]

They said Chinese charge thousands of dollars for simple tools and broken parts even though we prefer German tools and we have some in there but basically we cant produce and introduce our tools made by our engineers that too in very little cost bcz of contract or whatever

If you want to know the truth behind these things, you need to understand the Chinese better.

According to Chinese business logic, once the net profit of any business exceeds 20%, a large number of Chinese will flock in. These latecomers will do whatever it takes to seize market share. Price wars are the best tactic. These Chinese will continue to fight internal conflicts until the business becomes unprofitable.

These phenomena exist in any business involving Chinese, whether in China or abroad.

For example:
A company's business in Pakistan may have a net profit of 60%. However, soon some of its employees will leave. They will use their existing technical expertise and business networks to start a new company and seize market share from the original company. They will drive down the net profit to gain a price advantage. This cycle repeats itself, and soon the net profit of the business will return to the normal business norm of around 5-10%.

This is China's magic weapon for dominating the global manufacturing industry. No Chinese company can escape this circle. Therefore, when you do business with the Chinese, you never have to worry about long-term profiteering. This phenomenon does not exist in China. The Chinese instinct for internal strife will eliminate it on its own.

If a Chinese-run business in Pakistan consistently maintains a net profit margin exceeding 20%, there's only one possible explanation: significant hidden costs. As for what these significant hidden costs are, you can figure it out for yourself.

BTW. In China, there is only one industry that consistently generates exorbitant profits: China Tobacco Corporation. Yet, all Chinese people have no complaints about this company's excessive profits.

 

[Toxic]

In China, there is only one industry that consistently generates exorbitant profits: China Tobacco Corporation. Yet, all Chinese people have no complaints about this company's excessive profits

That goes for most of the world, Tobacco industry everywhere is massively profitable.