PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[HRK]

Unless Pakistanis are just a group of idiots, they would go for the option that offers the most benefits with the least cost. So, what if Pakistan becomes a complete "ally" of US, like Qatar? Wouldn't it be much better, besides the icing on the cake of paying only 1/10 of the price for radio components? Maybe by now, Pakistan would be flying squadrons of F-35s. Wouldn't that be great? I think nowadays, many Iranians are having the same dream, too.

What he is saying is not about political alliance or international politics but corruption in Pakistan by people in power and Chinese firms who have contact with those corrupt people are using the opportunities to their favor.

The issue is not limited to defence sector only, but in other sectors as well.

I also know few stories as I am part of financial sector of Pakistan and deals with Chinese businesses at different levels. I can tell you there are stories where Chinese individuals and firms were charged 10 times the cost of services by another Chinese firms who act as main vendor for those services required by the other Chinese in Pakistan.

The reason when I asked as I do have very cordial relation with management of the Chinese firms they simply replied that they have to pay bribe to people at different level in 5 or 6 Government offices.

So the stories I know Chinese are themselves getting exploited by other Chinese firms on behalf of some corrupt individuals.

 

[Michael]

I also know few stories as I am part of financial sector of Pakistan and deals with Chinese businesses at different levels. I can tell you there are stories where Chinese individuals and firms were charged 10 times the cost of services by another Chinese firms who act as main vendor for those services required by the other Chinese in Pakistan.
The reason when I asked as I do have very cordial relation with management of the Chinese firms they simply replied that they have to pay bribe to people at different level in 5 or 6 Government offices.

We are aware of the situation in Pakistan, but this is all we can do. However, Pakistani friends are blaming the Chinese for this, which is obviously an unfounded accusation.

Put yourself in their shoes.

You're doing business in a certain country, and a local official demands a bribe. So you go to another official to handle the necessary paperwork. But this official also demands a bribe. And so, every official you visit demands a bribe.

What would you do?

In a country where corruption is pervasive from top to bottom, we have only two choices: adapt to these unspoken rules or leave.

Based on the friendly relations between China and Pakistan, Pakistan longs for Chinese investors to do business in Pakistan, thereby boosting the entire economy. Yet, on the PDF, our Pakistani friends constantly accuse the Chinese of supporting corruption in Pakistan. So, tell me, where in Pakistan is corruption not present? ------ If all Chinese businessmen leave Pakistan and we no longer have any business dealings with each other, would you be satisfied?

Or...

The Chinese government has sent a large number of personnel into Pakistan. They delve into every corner of Pakistan, delving into every detail of every matter, and thoroughly investigating the integrity of every official. Afterward, we will only interact with officials who are completely clean.
Will this satisfy the Pakistani members of the PDF?
But do you know what this means? I believe no Pakistani would want us to do this.

====================================

As outsiders, the Chinese will not interfere in Pakistan's internal affairs. We will only respond appropriately to local conditions. In other words, we will adapt to the environment, not change it. Changing this environment is the responsibility of the Pakistanis, not the Chinese.

We, too, detest corruption. We hope the Pakistani government remains clean. If Pakistan's anti-corruption law enforcement agencies require cooperation from Chinese businesspeople, we would be happy to do so. However, we have neither the interest nor the ability to proactively change the status quo.

Please remember that it is the Pakistanis' responsibility to deal with corruption in Pakistan, not the Chinese. Blaming others for your own incompetence is extremely shameful.

 

[Ak01]

You have always been very anti-China.

I am Pro Pakistan. If that means i have to be anti China, then so be it...

Don’t the folks on the forum know how much China sells weapons and equipment to Pakistan for? Compare it with the prices India pays for its weapons.

Really crap argument, You can never make a direct comparison because no side will buy exactly the same type of packages. Its the same reason why a Typhoon for one place is $120m, and for others, $360m.

Another simple question:
If Pakistan directly purchases engines from Russia, will India allow the JF-17 to take off?

Yes. Pakistan had some pretty big deals for defence procurement lined up, axed by Pakistan due to their poor perf. Particularly AD,

 

[Ak01]

You're doing business in a certain country, and a local official demands a bribe. So you go to another official to handle the necessary paperwork. But this official also demands a bribe. And so, every official you visit demands a bribe.

So are you saying Chinese would never go out of their way to offer bribes in exchange for assured sales of their products?


Because i was approached by a "Mr Max"- obviously not his real name, but he ran the show at "Zhong Tian Guide Control Technology Company" offering me bribes in exchange for assured contracts in Pakistan and the Gulf.



Just in case you think im bullshitting...




Was this him "adapting to realities" or dangling a carrot in front of any horse to see who would bite.

 

[Be dazzled]

So are you saying Chinese would never go out of their way to offer bribes in exchange for assured sales of their products?


Because i was approached by a "Mr Max"- obviously not his real name, but he ran the show at "Zhong Tian Guide Control Technology Company" offering me bribes in exchange for assured contracts in Pakistan and the Gulf.

View attachment 146577

Just in case you think im bullshitting...
View attachment 146578View attachment 146579
View attachment 146580


Was this him "adapting to realities" or dangling a carrot in front of any horse to see who would bite.

For AAM. Interesting.

 

[fameen]

This seems like a scam, Arslan01. Good of you not to fall for it. Many emanate from China, India, as well as other countries. "Commissions", or kickbacks, are often a little more tailored and structured than random messages. Sadly, such inducements are not unknown in Pakistan and have been a feature of arms purchases since at least... I believe, the first Mirage III order in 1969. There were several scandals surrounding Lockheed and its F-104 fighter sales around the world one of which, famously, caught Prince Bernhard the Dutch Crown Prince in its wake. It's still a story in the Netherlands. More recently, in the UK, the Government was embarrassed when it was revealed by the Serious Fraud Office that BAE Systems had sought (and received) approvals to pay rather hefty "commissions" to a very senior royal for the Al-Yamama series of contracts. Your favourite fighter... the Eurofighter Typhoon was caught up in that.

In a newspaper article in The Muslim newspaper in 1985, I revealed rather strange goings-on involving a potential acquisition of British Type 21 Frigates for the Pakistan Navy which had been approved. The publication of the article resulted in the newly installed Prime Minister Junejo raising questions in the then parliament. Rather than answer questions, the $ 450 million deal was shelved. On the side the deal included Blowpipe SAMs which had failed testing by the Pakistan Army. The side deal was also shelved.

It's a bit harsh to suggest that the Chinese are unique in offering inducements. What's true, however, is that the possibility of inducements is diminished, though by no means removed, by manufacturing at home. The Chinese have been helping Pakistan develop its domestic industry. That's certainly a big plus in their favour.

I understand you feel strongly about the superiority of Western weapons and the morality of Western suppliers. The evidence doesn't always support such a view.

 

[RajaBaja]

What he is saying is not about political alliance or international politics but corruption in Pakistan by people in power and Chinese firms who have contact with those corrupt people are using the opportunities to their favor.

The issue is not limited to defence sector only, but in other sectors as well.

I also know few stories as I am part of financial sector of Pakistan and deals with Chinese businesses at different levels. I can tell you there are stories where Chinese individuals and firms were charged 10 times the cost of services by another Chinese firms who act as main vendor for those services required by the other Chinese in Pakistan.

The reason when I asked as I do have very cordial relation with management of the Chinese firms they simply replied that they have to pay bribe to people at different level in 5 or 6 Government offices.

So the stories I know Chinese are themselves getting exploited by other Chinese firms on behalf of some corrupt individuals.

Common man, have some mercy on your country!! Political garbage can go into less critical areas. Please share with us a few examples of China-Pakistan corruption. I am also very involved and would love to learn about it.

Us Pakistanis are great at one thing, called "conspiracy theories" now having anti-Pakistan political flavor also. From this forum to average person's daily life in Pakistan, you ask someone about anything, they will have NO knowledge, but will never say it and will give you a story and it has gotten worst due to political environment now! There is so much fake propaganda by one political party against anything productive happening in Pakistan that it's sad to see.

Since you said you are in finances, that's not enough and also it's not enough to say "I am friendly with a few Chinese and they told me they give bribes to Pakistani leadership". If anyone would've told me that, I would know this is political propaganda that our nation is dealing with.

If you have ANY relationship with finances of CPEC or other Chinese projects, you would know the project costing first gets approved in China. There is strict audit in that. Then it comes to Pakistan and gets discussed from cabinet down 3 levels of people.

Then, there are negotiations and a final price set. So it is safe to say in every project, from a controllership perspective, there are about 100+ people involved from both nations.

If such massive fraud was taking place, TRUST ME, someone from IK's propaganda gang would've leaked out some "documents".

This is similar to propaganda that was done back in 2020 due to which, the Chinese at one point wanted to leave majority of the projects and while, we had terrible relationships with the Saudis, Americans and even Europeans. Some people's lose mouths gave us billions of loss through losing direct air operations to Europe and America as just one example. People say things casually like it's a joke. One wonders which nation are they truly loyal to!

 

[RajaBaja]

So are you saying Chinese would never go out of their way to offer bribes in exchange for assured sales of their products?


Because i was approached by a "Mr Max"- obviously not his real name, but he ran the show at "Zhong Tian Guide Control Technology Company" offering me bribes in exchange for assured contracts in Pakistan and the Gulf.

View attachment 146577

Just in case you think im bullshitting...
View attachment 146578View attachment 146579
View attachment 146580


Was this him "adapting to realities" or dangling a carrot in front of any horse to see who would bite.

Wild! If ONLY bribes were paid this openly that one can just post messages to the world. This could be someone trying to steal your information or your contacts also? A scam!

French law allows them to pay between 10-20% as "customer reward back". They've legalized corruption as they are smart and knew it would happen to grow their defense industry. Rafale was a big issue in India and Egypt as it was linked to corruption. Take only 10% of India's Rafale money that would've gone back to Modi and some other. One of the ex-French PM's had to go due to this.

Was there ONE proof? NO! Even when its legal.

A couple of days ago, you came up with "supplier diversity" essentially saying in many posts how Pakistan should get away from Chinese defense industry. What's your goal really behind these posts and today, show casing a shady message that you were offered "bribe" to get a contract in Pakistan?

I want to also know how YOU can get them a contract awarded because the military body that overseas the contracts is all here. This is unbelievable amounts of rubbish to say the least and an effort in hurting Pak-China relationship.

Why don't you show us the RFP this Chinese person responded to? Or they just shared some diagrams with you so you can magically make the Government and Military of Pakistan influenced in buying such expensive equipment? You think all readers are stupid?

 

[Ali_Baba]

So are you saying Chinese would never go out of their way to offer bribes in exchange for assured sales of their products?


Because i was approached by a "Mr Max"- obviously not his real name, but he ran the show at "Zhong Tian Guide Control Technology Company" offering me bribes in exchange for assured contracts in Pakistan and the Gulf.

View attachment 146577

Just in case you think im bullshitting...
View attachment 146578View attachment 146579
View attachment 146580


Was this him "adapting to realities" or dangling a carrot in front of any horse to see who would bite.

Come on - maybe he mistook you for Zardari ? You know, someone cut from the same cloth?? What do you look like? Maybe it was the vibes you were giving off ?? Have you ever have this happen to you in 'other' situations ?

 

[Ak01]

This seems like a scam, Arslan01. Good of you not to fall for it. Many emanate from China, India, as well as other countries. "Commissions", or kickbacks, are often a little more tailored and structured than random messages. Sadly, such inducements are not unknown in Pakistan and have been a feature of arms purchases since at least... I believe, the first Mirage III order in 1969. There were several scandals surrounding Lockheed and its F-104 fighter sales around the world one of which, famously, caught Prince Bernhard the Dutch Crown Prince in its wake. It's still a story in the Netherlands. More recently, in the UK, the Government was embarrassed when it was revealed by the Serious Fraud Office that BAE Systems had sought (and received) approvals to pay rather hefty "commissions" to a very senior royal for the Al-Yamama series of contracts. Your favourite fighter... the Eurofighter Typhoon was caught up in that.

In a newspaper article in The Muslim newspaper in 1985, I revealed rather strange goings-on involving a potential acquisition of British Type 21 Frigates for the Pakistan Navy which had been approved. The publication of the article resulted in the newly installed Prime Minister Junejo raising questions in the then parliament. Rather than answer questions, the $ 450 million deal was shelved. On the side the deal included Blowpipe SAMs which had failed testing by the Pakistan Army. The side deal was also shelved.

It's a bit harsh to suggest that the Chinese are unique in offering inducements. What's true, however, is that the possibility of inducements is diminished, though by no means removed, by manufacturing at home. The Chinese have been helping Pakistan develop its domestic industry. That's certainly a big plus in their favour.

I understand you feel strongly about the superiority of Western weapons and the morality of Western suppliers. The evidence doesn't always support such a view.

wasnt a scam- its a long story from back in '21. All legit

 

[Ak01]

Common man, have some mercy on your country!! Political garbage can go into less critical areas. Please share with us a few examples of China-Pakistan corruption. I am also very involved and would love to learn about it.

Us Pakistanis are great at one thing, called "conspiracy theories" now having anti-Pakistan political flavor also. From this forum to average person's daily life in Pakistan, you ask someone about anything, they will have NO knowledge, but will never say it and will give you a story and it has gotten worst due to political environment now! There is so much fake propaganda by one political party against anything productive happening in Pakistan that it's sad to see.

Since you said you are in finances, that's not enough and also it's not enough to say "I am friendly with a few Chinese and they told me they give bribes to Pakistani leadership". If anyone would've told me that, I would know this is political propaganda that our nation is dealing with.

If you have ANY relationship with finances of CPEC or other Chinese projects, you would know the project costing first gets approved in China. There is strict audit in that. Then it comes to Pakistan and gets discussed from cabinet down 3 levels of people.

Then, there are negotiations and a final price set. So it is safe to say in every project, from a controllership perspective, there are about 100+ people involved from both nations.

If such massive fraud was taking place, TRUST ME, someone from IK's propaganda gang would've leaked out some "documents".

This is similar to propaganda that was done back in 2020 due to which, the Chinese at one point wanted to leave majority of the projects and while, we had terrible relationships with the Saudis, Americans and even Europeans. Some people's lose mouths gave us billions of loss through losing direct air operations to Europe and America as just one example. People say things casually like it's a joke. One wonders which nation are they truly loyal to!

Those who know, know. Those, like yourself, among the clueless, should stay clueless.

 

[Ak01]

For AAM. Interesting.

was for a JAGM type setup.

 

[Ak01]

It's a bit harsh to suggest that the Chinese are unique in offering inducements. What's true, however, is that the possibility of inducements is diminished, though by no means removed, by manufacturing at home. The Chinese have been helping Pakistan develop its domestic industry. That's certainly a big plus in their favour.

im not suggeting this at all.

what i am saying though is our friend suggesting this is a Pakistan specific problem is disingenuous, this is a pretty well established practice of most vendors, including china, so painting this out to be the poor chinese forced to play dirty is simply just bs.

 

[RajaBaja]

Those who know, know. Those, like yourself, among the clueless, should stay clueless.

Have you ever been involved in a defense deal? For you to write such a post and show a scam like post as "offer to bribe" for a global defense contract tells all about the fact that you have no exposure to how these global contracts really work!

The engineering diagrams go to technical people for evaluations. I've even judged your background from your posts!

Don't ask me how much corruption is in defense deals with Western nations! You seem to think LM or Raytheon or Dassault came from heavens with purity.

 

[Ak01]

This seems like a scam, Arslan01. Good of you not to fall for it. Many emanate from China, India, as well as other countries. "Commissions", or kickbacks, are often a little more tailored and structured than random messages. Sadly, such inducements are not unknown in Pakistan and have been a feature of arms purchases since at least... I believe, the first Mirage III order in 1969. There were several scandals surrounding Lockheed and its F-104 fighter sales around the world one of which, famously, caught Prince Bernhard the Dutch Crown Prince in its wake. It's still a story in the Netherlands. More recently, in the UK, the Government was embarrassed when it was revealed by the Serious Fraud Office that BAE Systems had sought (and received) approvals to pay rather hefty "commissions" to a very senior royal for the Al-Yamama series of contracts. Your favourite fighter... the Eurofighter Typhoon was caught up in that.

theres alot that has not been shown!