PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

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Those who know, know. Those, like yourself, among the clueless, should stay clueless.
Anyone who thinks the Chinese are even remotely less corrupt than the countries they deal with has no idea of the reality of Chinese defense sales policies. They are petty enough to send you untranslated documents if you so much as ask them for minor changes in licensing terms.

As said before, I’m not insinuating China is somehow alone in this, I’m just saying that China is no better than the others and all those who claim so need a reality check.
 
Anyone who thinks the Chinese are even remotely less corrupt than the countries they deal with has no idea of the reality of Chinese defense sales policies. They are petty enough to send you untranslated documents if you so much as ask them for minor changes in licensing terms.

As said before, I’m not insinuating China is somehow alone in this, I’m just saying that China is no better than the others and all those who claim so need a reality check.
literally my point, yet our friends seem to think china is a bastion of purity, that corruption only exists elsewhere and the chinese are just FORCED to partake against every fibre of their being lol
 
You have always been very anti-China.
Don’t the folks on the forum know how much China sells weapons and equipment to Pakistan for? Compare it with the prices India pays for its weapons.

Another simple question:
If Pakistan directly purchases engines from Russia, will India allow the JF-17 to take off?
Friend, people having a different point of view is quite natural. All these opinions we see here on PDF certainly do not reflect the official Pakistani policy. These might be personal opinions or may have some stakes involved. But who really cares about that?

The two governments of China and Pakistan know what exactly they are doing. The strong coordination/integration of the respective militaries reflects the strategic bond between our two countries.

So, reading these diverse opinions just as the opinions (and not the official statements/state policies) and just move on, rather than resenting or countering them, is the logical course of action.
 
Anyone who thinks the Chinese are even remotely less corrupt than the countries they deal with has no idea of the reality of Chinese defense sales policies. They are petty enough to send you untranslated documents if you so much as ask them for minor changes in licensing terms.

As said before, I’m not insinuating China is somehow alone in this, I’m just saying that China is no better than the others and all those who claim so need a reality check.
way better than others especially the western enemy nations! We pakistanis are always our own worse enemy! hell bent on destroying any good relations!
 
Anyone who thinks the Chinese are even remotely less corrupt than the countries they deal with has no idea of the reality of Chinese defense sales policies. They are petty enough to send you untranslated documents if you so much as ask them for minor changes in licensing terms.

As said before, I’m not insinuating China is somehow alone in this, I’m just saying that China is no better than the others and all those who claim so need a reality check.

You are missing the point!! For LM to jack up F-16's total price by 20% immediately shows there is money "baked in" for pay backs. I won't call that "bribe" because it's institutionalized per their business policy. French have even gone a step ahead and legalize it through their constitution.

Now in China's case, we are ALREADY getting things ~ 50% discount!! If the J-10C's original cost was $ 80 million and they were sold to us at $96 million per piece with a 20% cushion, the argument could have a point. But we are procuring Chinese weapons due to our strategic nature as well as our financial ability (or lack of it). So when the juice isn't worth the squeeze, why accuse them? The same concept holds true for the CPEC.

Can they do this to other nations? Sure. But that's not our issue.
 
Anyone who thinks the Chinese are even remotely less corrupt than the countries they deal with has no idea of the reality of Chinese defense sales policies. They are petty enough to send you untranslated documents if you so much as ask them for minor changes in licensing terms.

As said before, I’m not insinuating China is somehow alone in this, I’m just saying that China is no better than the others and all those who claim so need a reality check.
Sir, if every supplier country acts alike then why all these complaints against our strategic partners and iron brothers? Afterall, despite all these claimed issues (real or otherwise), Pakistan has tremendously benefitted from Chinese cooperation. Chinese came to our rescue when we had little alternate options.

Now that Chinese are at par with the west in science and technology and still advancing with amazing speed, Pakistan needs to reap the real benefits of our long-lasting and strategic alliance with China. That is the most precious fruit that we will be getting from our mutually beneficial strategic alliance with our Chinese friends since 1960s.
 
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Sir, if every supplier country acts alike then why all these complaints against our strategic partners and iron brothers? Afterall, despite all these claimed issues (real or otherwise), Pakistan has tremendously benefitted from Chinese cooperation. Chinese came to our rescue when we had little alternate options.

Now that Chinese are at par with the west in science and technology and still advancing with amazing speed, Pakistan needs to reap the real benefits of our long-lasting and strategic alliance with China. That is the most precious fruit that we will be getting from our strategic alliance with our Chinese friends since 1960s..
because the discussion here is about the chinese and how michael is claiming they're FORCED to partake in corrupt practices lol
 
Sir, if every supplier country acts alike then why all these complaints against our strategic partners and iron brothers? Afterall, despite all these claimed issues (real or otherwise), Pakistan has tremendously benefitted from Chinese cooperation. Chinese came to our rescue when we had little alternate options.

Now that Chinese are at par with the west in science and technology and still advancing with amazing speed, Pakistan needs to reap the real benefits of our long-lasting and strategic alliance with China. That is the most precious fruit that we will be getting from our mutually beneficial strategic alliance with our Chinese friends since 1960s.
I’m not disagreeing with you here at all, the point of mine and Arsalan’s gripes is different, it’s no secret Pakistan has and continues to benefit from China and that where it is beneficial for china it has also given Pakistan preferential treatment, this however does not negate the fact that there are just as many instances where China has directly made decisions or forced Pakistan to accept worst deals, has stopped Pakistan from reducing dependence on Chinese weaponry/aid etc.

I’m a strong believer of the fact that nothing is more important than national interests, if tomorrow it is in Chinas national interests to invade Pakistan, I will say that it is fair if they do so, and given how staunchly China protects its national interests it might just.

The point is that you cannot do this and then also act like you’re different from all the other nations who also do this. Pakistan benefitted majorly from the US all throughout the Cold War, far more than Pakistan has even benefited from China militarily, but when the US no longer needed us, we were discarded, and now everyone hear speaks ill of the US, if a day comes where China no longer needs us, they will do the same, it is because of this that it’s important to stay aware of China’s true intentions too. This doesn’t mean we reverse relations with them in any way or start thinking they’re evil or what have you, it simply means that we need to be ready for when and If we are no longer useful to China, and to do that you have to acknowledge realities.

It is very common for both Chinese & Pakistani posters to think I’m Anti-China because of these sentiments even though I make it a habit to point out how impressive China’s growth is and how much they’ve supported Pakistan, it’s just that i acknowledge the other side of it too, there’s no free lunches.
 
Friend, people having a different point of view is quite natural. All these opinions we see here on PDF certainly do not reflect the official Pakistani policy. These might be personal opinions or may have some stakes involved. But who really cares about that?

The two governments of China and Pakistan know what exactly they are doing. The strong coordination/integration of the respective militaries reflects the strategic bond between our two countries.

So, reading these diverse opinions just as the opinions (and not the official statements/state policies) and just move on, rather than resenting or countering them, is the logical course of action.
We respect the freedom of speech of our Pakistani friends. However, freedom of speech should also be treated with basic respect, not with arbitrary slander.

For Chinese people, you can slander us personally, but you cannot slander our country. This is deeply offensive. I don't want to use offensive language to describe this feeling.

Corruption is an internal matter for every country. In any way, it has nothing to do with foreigners. If Chinese businessmen actively bribe Pakistani officials, then you can punish them according to Pakistani law. If you do so, no Chinese will criticize Pakistan for it. The Chinese government and Chinese culture have always taught the Chinese people that when we are abroad, we must abide by local laws. Similarly, foreigners visiting China must also abide by Chinese laws.

For example:
China has zero tolerance for drugs. However, some countries legalize marijuana. If a Pakistani entering China from Canada is found with marijuana, they will certainly be punished under Chinese law. But no Chinese would blame Pakistan for this.

Pork is a staple meat for Chinese people. However, it is taboo in Pakistan. If a Chinese person eats pork in Pakistan, they will be sentenced under local Pakistani law. At this point, no Chinese would blame Pakistan. Instead, we would blame the Chinese who broke the law.

Whether Chinese, Western, or Pakistani businessmen, all businesspeople calculate profit. If a Chinese businessman offers to bribe a Pakistani official, he needs to consider the cost and benefit. If the benefit significantly outweighs the cost, any businessman will offer a bribe. If the cost outweighs the benefit, no businessman will offer a bribe. This is a basic business principle.

If a country wants to avoid corruption, it needs to proactively amend its laws and increase penalties. This way, the cost to businesspeople will far outweigh the benefits. No one in their right mind would offer a bribe.

In China, trafficking over 50g of heroin can result in the death penalty. You can research the situation in other countries. But the general consensus is that countries with higher costs of crime tend to have lower crime rates, while countries with lower costs tend to have higher crime rates.

This is basic social logic. Yet, some Pakistanis are blaming China as a whole......
 
So are you saying Chinese would never go out of their way to offer bribes in exchange for assured sales of their products?


Because i was approached by a "Mr Max"- obviously not his real name, but he ran the show at "Zhong Tian Guide Control Technology Company" offering me bribes in exchange for assured contracts in Pakistan and the Gulf.

View attachment 146577

Just in case you think im bullshitting...
View attachment 146578View attachment 146579
View attachment 146580


Was this him "adapting to realities" or dangling a carrot in front of any horse to see who would bite.
is 28VDC standard for missiles? Using the good old Serial 485 i see......
 
We respect the freedom of speech of our Pakistani friends. However, freedom of speech should also be treated with basic respect, not with arbitrary slander.

For Chinese people, you can slander us personally, but you cannot slander our country. This is deeply offensive. I don't want to use offensive language to describe this feeling.

Corruption is an internal matter for every country. In any way, it has nothing to do with foreigners. If Chinese businessmen actively bribe Pakistani officials, then you can punish them according to Pakistani law. If you do so, no Chinese will criticize Pakistan for it. The Chinese government and Chinese culture have always taught the Chinese people that when we are abroad, we must abide by local laws. Similarly, foreigners visiting China must also abide by Chinese laws.

For example:
China has zero tolerance for drugs. However, some countries legalize marijuana. If a Pakistani entering China from Canada is found with marijuana, they will certainly be punished under Chinese law. But no Chinese would blame Pakistan for this.

Pork is a staple meat for Chinese people. However, it is taboo in Pakistan. If a Chinese person eats pork in Pakistan, they will be sentenced under local Pakistani law. At this point, no Chinese would blame Pakistan. Instead, we would blame the Chinese who broke the law.

Whether Chinese, Western, or Pakistani businessmen, all businesspeople calculate profit. If a Chinese businessman offers to bribe a Pakistani official, he needs to consider the cost and benefit. If the benefit significantly outweighs the cost, any businessman will offer a bribe. If the cost outweighs the benefit, no businessman will offer a bribe. This is a basic business principle.

If a country wants to avoid corruption, it needs to proactively amend its laws and increase penalties. This way, the cost to businesspeople will far outweigh the benefits. No one in their right mind would offer a bribe.

In China, trafficking over 50g of heroin can result in the death penalty. You can research the situation in other countries. But the general consensus is that countries with higher costs of crime tend to have lower crime rates, while countries with lower costs tend to have higher crime rates.

This is basic social logic. Yet, some Pakistanis are blaming China as a whole......
Nobody has even blamed China for anything, let alone as a whole, you simply seem to have a habit of making a mountain out of a mole hill. A lecture on China’s crime rates and punishments for infractions has no place or relevance in the points being made.
 
It is pretty common in business deals to offer extra stuff to get the contract. If you don't offer and your competitor does and gets the contract, then how are you gonna answer that missed sale? Business is ruthless.

Every single major defense deal whether european or american or chinese is done via kickbacks or favors. It is very easy as well as very common. Same with Industrial and infrastructure contracts.

So lets end it here and focus on J-10CEs.

Any more J-10CEs coming to PAF in light of the new Rafale order consideration by IAF?
 
Pakistan should defiantly get more J10CE

we need the combination of JF17 Block 3+ PL-15 and J10CE + PL-15

mix that with J-35 and we should get 48 units
 
We respect the freedom of speech of our Pakistani friends. However, freedom of speech should also be treated with basic respect, not with arbitrary slander.

For Chinese people, you can slander us personally, but you cannot slander our country. This is deeply offensive. I don't want to use offensive language to describe this feeling.

Corruption is an internal matter for every country. In any way, it has nothing to do with foreigners. If Chinese businessmen actively bribe Pakistani officials, then you can punish them according to Pakistani law. If you do so, no Chinese will criticize Pakistan for it. The Chinese government and Chinese culture have always taught the Chinese people that when we are abroad, we must abide by local laws. Similarly, foreigners visiting China must also abide by Chinese laws.

For example:
China has zero tolerance for drugs. However, some countries legalize marijuana. If a Pakistani entering China from Canada is found with marijuana, they will certainly be punished under Chinese law. But no Chinese would blame Pakistan for this.

Pork is a staple meat for Chinese people. However, it is taboo in Pakistan. If a Chinese person eats pork in Pakistan, they will be sentenced under local Pakistani law. At this point, no Chinese would blame Pakistan. Instead, we would blame the Chinese who broke the law.

Whether Chinese, Western, or Pakistani businessmen, all businesspeople calculate profit. If a Chinese businessman offers to bribe a Pakistani official, he needs to consider the cost and benefit. If the benefit significantly outweighs the cost, any businessman will offer a bribe. If the cost outweighs the benefit, no businessman will offer a bribe. This is a basic business principle.

If a country wants to avoid corruption, it needs to proactively amend its laws and increase penalties. This way, the cost to businesspeople will far outweigh the benefits. No one in their right mind would offer a bribe.

In China, trafficking over 50g of heroin can result in the death penalty. You can research the situation in other countries. But the general consensus is that countries with higher costs of crime tend to have lower crime rates, while countries with lower costs tend to have higher crime rates.

This is basic social logic. Yet, some Pakistanis are blaming China as a whole......

The reality is, every Pakistani with a sane mind knows the good that has come out of China for us. Whether in defense or our nation or towards infrastructure or economy. We all understand it.

The shameless issue here is, we have a political party whose narrative has become anti-Pakistan on every issue. Anything being done to grow the nation is portrayed as negative and various false allegations are put on things like a few of the posts above. This narrative is deeply supported by India and Israel. It's become poisonous and extremely anti-Pakistan. It's time we became a "hard state" and supported just Pakistan.

This same mindset of one person above the entire nation was the root cause of delays in CPEC, us getting kicked out of direct international flights out of nearly half the world that took our airline into bankruptcy as well as probably worsening of relations with the US, China, Saudi Arabia, etc. The list of these dirty tactics is too long. That mindset exists on social media and forums like this!
 
as said previously, if the dog had lipstick, it would turn into a portrait of your mother.

I'll show respect to your parents even though you've shown your DNA already. When people like you don't have real facts to show, they will start to get upset and write dumb and stupid things. The readers should know this person has no brains to give facts.

Serious question. Aren't you sick of posting bullsh8 every day? One day you brought up "declassified CIA documents" which are public knowledge for the entire world, then you started this bullsh8 show of "vendor replacement" and spat negativity around Pakistan's partnership with China, and today it's "Chinese are corrupt" and that you were offered "online bribe"? What's your real name Arsalan Patel?

I've yet to see a true post that makes a difference or sets someone's level even as "educated" let alone knowledgeable.
 
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