PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

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Ali_Baba said:
Erm - quick 1 liner for those of us who cant read Urdu ?
Click to expand...
1) Sadar e Mumlikat ka Cheen ke Aviation Industry Corporation ke aircraft complex ka dourah.
2) Beijing- Sadar Asif Zardari Pehle geyr Mulki sarbarah hain jinhon ne iss complex ka dourah kiya.
3) Sadar e Mumlikat musallah afwaaj (armed forces) ke Supreme Commander ki haysiyat se AVIC complex pohanche.
4) Sadar ko J-10, JF-17, aur J-20 stealth fighter par briefing di gayi.
5) Sadar Asif Zardari ne J-10C tayaarah tyaar karne waaley complex ka dourah kiya.
 
RajaBaja said:
It's time we end our relationship with the JF-17 airframe. This was a product of 1997 era technology and aviation industry. The JF-17 units will serve us for another 15 years, all at block III standard with a great service record.

We need our engineering pool re-trained in China. Partner with China on a single engine 5th gen stealth design and get numbers in from China as well as make them locally.

This is time to make this move and create a permanent standard of Pakistan's aviation industry at 5th gen level. From here, going to 6th gen in 10 years can happen easily.

We'll probably acquire more J-10C in numbers to supplement the existing J-10C's and JF-17's. But it should be the end of the JF-17's current airframe production. Time to move to 5th gen and train our people on Chinese process engineering for better manufacturing here. It's an opportunity for us to get ahead of 4th and 4.5th gen tech and leave India behind who will be busy in getting the Rafales again.
Click to expand...

JF-17 can only be a numbers filler platform. It is a fighter just to give PAF a fighter presence in an airspace. That is it. You are right. Outside of getting to numbers you need using the cheapest available platform that is modern enough to be minimally effective. Beyond that, additional numbers is a waste of resources that should be put towards higher capabilities.

JF-17 just doesn't have the range or missile payload capacity that a larger fighter has. We can say J-10 has the same 4 + 2 missile capacity but in a 4 + 2 configuration, the J-10CE has much more range than JF-17 when both have three tanks, two tanks, one tank or no tanks. J-10CE in that configuration has better turning performance as well and ability to reach higher speed. This is just mechanical performance, radar and ECM suite is vastly more modern than JF-17 even block 3 is at best not going to match J-10CE's.

JF-17 already have good numbers and still being produced because Pakistan knows how to build most of it with Chinese sourced components. It can use this to develop its own industry like how China used the Mig-21 to develop its own fighter industry.

There is little chance China will cooperate with Pakistan on a 5th gen single engine platform. It takes so much manpower (brainpower) to devote to a separate line. China is done with 5th gens. Only the upgrade of the two 5th gen platforms it operates. The inventing side of the fighter equation is dedicated to 6th gen and other things like unmanned air dominance fighters and CCAs. China will not dedicate another few thousands engineers for another 10 years to develop yet another 5th gen model. Pakistan at the moment doesn't have that know how. It can but it takes a lot of time and persistent dedication over that span. JF-17 can get Pakistan mastering 4th gen fighter technologies but getting the whole ecosystem under one roof doesn't take just a few thousand engineers, it takes tens of thousands over decades. India has barely been able to do this but it passes with Tejas. Even then, they did not master and internalise a lot of critical sub-systems from mechanical things like the engine to the software architecture for their own electronic warfare suite. Most of those critical sub-systems in Tejas are European, American, Russian or Israeli. If they can't do it with the 40+ years they spent developing and mastering the Tejas, Pakistan surely cannot with only a fraction of India's population total and available resources. Sweden and France and industrialised and wealthy nations with a lot of cooperation with other similar nations. Where they lack, they also buy expertise - Rafale's radar tech is heavily American sourced. Gripen's really 1/3 American with propulsion system (including all software integration) and 1/3 British BAe.

Pakistan shouldn't expect to master everything. It already is able to do a lot. It just needs to set long term goals and get its population wealthier, get its economy more developed and start institutions that one day in the very distant future may be able to master whatever it is currently missing. It is foolish to imagine conquering a 1000 step journey within a few giant steps.

For security, Pakistan has JF-17 which is becoming quite outdated in a time IAF is procuring Rafales (considering 100+ Rafales) and thinking about Su-57. It therefore does need higher capability but will always lose an arms race against India. Like Vietnam will always lose an arms race against China, Vietnam can try and make it painful for China to tread on it. If it came to military conflict. Pakistan needs J-10CE in greater numbers, it needs to get China to integrate PL-17 with J-10CE if possible. Weight wise it is not an issue at all since J-10 can carry the YJ-91. Get those inner pylons wired for PL-17. This would elevate its capability considerably. J-10CE already has in flight refuel capability but Pakistan doesn't have tankers and needs enough tanks for this. So J-10 is down to one centre fuel tank but now has 2x PL-17, 4x PL-15, 2x PL-10. Can even forego the PL-10 to get weight down and extract a bit more range and performance since you don't want to fight close range anyway.

For deterrence, Pakistan needs the ability to produce and send thousands of suicide drones without needing to resort to spending too many cruise missiles and short range ballistic missiles in any counter fire to India doing suicide drone strikes in Pakistan. No long and medium range air defence will be used to intercept these cheap drones unless the value of life and infrastructure is worth the cost. Unfortunately Pakistan (and India) today just isn't at the level where they can afford to spend $10M worth of AD to intercept $10,000 worth of suicide drones. China has plenty of laser and shorad solutions for this now plus microwave weapons and other electronic means of disabling suicide drones. Certainly for the suicide drones that India is able to produce. Get some of those. Invest the rest in attrition based offensive weapons of your own. Being able to do the same to India will discourage adventurism. If it's a high end fight India wants to do like in May, PAF needs to outclass the IAF again. J-10CE can counter Rafales.

Next step for PAF is 5th gen. KAAN is not going anywhere soon without engines. It's becoming doubtful Israel will allow any western nation to give Turkey reliable engine supply. It's doubtful China would sell WS-10 to a NATO member. That leaves only Russia as engine supplier which is okay. It'll be AL-31 or AL-41 based. J-35 production will mostly be focused for China's own PLAAF and PLANAF. Until at least 6th gen is close to PLAAF introduction. PLAAF wants to match and then exceed total number of western and western aligned 5th gen fighters with its own 5th and 6th gen. That means J-20 and J-35 production for the next 7 years or so at these 120+ per year rates. Pakistan probably won't be sold many if any J-35 for a while. With IAF not receiving any 5th gens, China will not want to spark an imbalance. Pakistan can defend itself well enough from India is good enough for China. If Pakistan is actually in genuine military trouble, China knows it can stand on its own it's a nuclear power after all and its main adversary is SRBM range away and at most MRBM ranged both of which Pakistan has. India has currently pretty poor to non-existent BMD. It has proven it has the capability of such but capability and sustained total defense is decades and many levels apart.

So this manned 5th gen idea is really not in PAF's near to medium term. Single engine manned 5th gen is impossible unless PAF buys Russia's new Mig if they ever make it. China won't build one for Pakistan and has no need for one. It'll be a waste of human resources to send experienced and capable engineers on a development cycle for something it already has much better versions of. UADF is the answer since it has plenty of advantages that manned fighers don't have and few drawbacks. Will China sell any is a question but in time if 5th gen is open, these UADF certainly are too. Problem is they are a network of network platform. Pakistan doesn't have the multilayered communication, command control and ISR platforms that make UADF operation effective.

Good news is that it doesn't need any of this stuff at all because its main threat is India which doesn't have a 5th gen and won't be getting one anytime soon. It does need to deter India so get the offensive weapons like suicide drones and be done. Get new shorads to defend key critical infrastructure from Indian attacks. Pointless targets can be undefended. It's unrealistic to buy enough shorad and lasers to defend everything. Drones are always cheaper. But China will be able to supply Pakistan with effective enough defenses even in small numbers. The balance is the deterrence and the defense. To counter more Rafales and possibly Su-57, PAF needs more J-10CE and ideally J-10CE with PL-17 will be wonderful. Whatever secret electronic warfare aircraft China has in the Y-9 platform will also be great. I feel China would never divulge details and sell any of the Y-9 based special mission aircraft and also they are PLAAF network specific it seems. Still I bet PAF will look into what there is in that space if there's anything worth pursing and allowed to be sold and bought.

More J-10CE and better weapons for J-10CE is the best for more IAF Rafales. Su-57 might need PAF to consider some other solutions like J-35.
 
aurelianpilled said:
1) Sadar e Mumlikat ka Cheen ke Aviation Industry Corporation ke aircraft complex ka dourah.
2) Beijing- Sadar Asif Zardari Pehle geyr Mulki sarbarah hain jinhon ne iss complex ka dourah kiya.
3) Sadar e Mumlikat musallah afwaaj (armed forces) ke Supreme Commander ki haysiyat se AVIC complex pohanche.
4) Sadar ko J-10, JF-17, aur J-20 stealth fighter par briefing di gayi.
5) Sadar Asif Zardari ne J-10C tayaarah tyaar karne waaley complex ka dourah kiya.
Click to expand...
Please use standard English to translate its meaning...
 
Michael said:
Please use standard English to translate its meaning...
Click to expand...
Ahh, my bad, it is just formal news coverage like the President visited the AVIC complex during his visit to China, first foreign head of state to visit the complex, briefing on J-10, JF-17, and J-20 - that's it

Edit- President reached the AVIC complex as the Supreme Commander of the Pakistan Armed Forces is included as well
 
niubi said:
JF-17 can only be a numbers filler platform. It is a fighter just to give PAF a fighter presence in an airspace. That is it. You are right. Outside of getting to numbers you need using the cheapest available platform that is modern enough to be minimally effective. Beyond that, additional numbers is a waste of resources that should be put towards higher capabilities.

JF-17 just doesn't have the range or missile payload capacity that a larger fighter has. We can say J-10 has the same 4 + 2 missile capacity but in a 4 + 2 configuration, the J-10CE has much more range than JF-17 when both have three tanks, two tanks, one tank or no tanks. J-10CE in that configuration has better turning performance as well and ability to reach higher speed. This is just mechanical performance, radar and ECM suite is vastly more modern than JF-17 even block 3 is at best not going to match J-10CE's.

JF-17 already have good numbers and still being produced because Pakistan knows how to build most of it with Chinese sourced components. It can use this to develop its own industry like how China used the Mig-21 to develop its own fighter industry.

There is little chance China will cooperate with Pakistan on a 5th gen single engine platform. It takes so much manpower (brainpower) to devote to a separate line. China is done with 5th gens. Only the upgrade of the two 5th gen platforms it operates. The inventing side of the fighter equation is dedicated to 6th gen and other things like unmanned air dominance fighters and CCAs. China will not dedicate another few thousands engineers for another 10 years to develop yet another 5th gen model. Pakistan at the moment doesn't have that know how. It can but it takes a lot of time and persistent dedication over that span. JF-17 can get Pakistan mastering 4th gen fighter technologies but getting the whole ecosystem under one roof doesn't take just a few thousand engineers, it takes tens of thousands over decades. India has barely been able to do this but it passes with Tejas. Even then, they did not master and internalise a lot of critical sub-systems from mechanical things like the engine to the software architecture for their own electronic warfare suite. Most of those critical sub-systems in Tejas are European, American, Russian or Israeli. If they can't do it with the 40+ years they spent developing and mastering the Tejas, Pakistan surely cannot with only a fraction of India's population total and available resources. Sweden and France and industrialised and wealthy nations with a lot of cooperation with other similar nations. Where they lack, they also buy expertise - Rafale's radar tech is heavily American sourced. Gripen's really 1/3 American with propulsion system (including all software integration) and 1/3 British BAe.

Pakistan shouldn't expect to master everything. It already is able to do a lot. It just needs to set long term goals and get its population wealthier, get its economy more developed and start institutions that one day in the very distant future may be able to master whatever it is currently missing. It is foolish to imagine conquering a 1000 step journey within a few giant steps.

For security, Pakistan has JF-17 which is becoming quite outdated in a time IAF is procuring Rafales (considering 100+ Rafales) and thinking about Su-57. It therefore does need higher capability but will always lose an arms race against India. Like Vietnam will always lose an arms race against China, Vietnam can try and make it painful for China to tread on it. If it came to military conflict. Pakistan needs J-10CE in greater numbers, it needs to get China to integrate PL-17 with J-10CE if possible. Weight wise it is not an issue at all since J-10 can carry the YJ-91. Get those inner pylons wired for PL-17. This would elevate its capability considerably. J-10CE already has in flight refuel capability but Pakistan doesn't have tankers and needs enough tanks for this. So J-10 is down to one centre fuel tank but now has 2x PL-17, 4x PL-15, 2x PL-10. Can even forego the PL-10 to get weight down and extract a bit more range and performance since you don't want to fight close range anyway.

For deterrence, Pakistan needs the ability to produce and send thousands of suicide drones without needing to resort to spending too many cruise missiles and short range ballistic missiles in any counter fire to India doing suicide drone strikes in Pakistan. No long and medium range air defence will be used to intercept these cheap drones unless the value of life and infrastructure is worth the cost. Unfortunately Pakistan (and India) today just isn't at the level where they can afford to spend $10M worth of AD to intercept $10,000 worth of suicide drones. China has plenty of laser and shorad solutions for this now plus microwave weapons and other electronic means of disabling suicide drones. Certainly for the suicide drones that India is able to produce. Get some of those. Invest the rest in attrition based offensive weapons of your own. Being able to do the same to India will discourage adventurism. If it's a high end fight India wants to do like in May, PAF needs to outclass the IAF again. J-10CE can counter Rafales.

Next step for PAF is 5th gen. KAAN is not going anywhere soon without engines. It's becoming doubtful Israel will allow any western nation to give Turkey reliable engine supply. It's doubtful China would sell WS-10 to a NATO member. That leaves only Russia as engine supplier which is okay. It'll be AL-31 or AL-41 based. J-35 production will mostly be focused for China's own PLAAF and PLANAF. Until at least 6th gen is close to PLAAF introduction. PLAAF wants to match and then exceed total number of western and western aligned 5th gen fighters with its own 5th and 6th gen. That means J-20 and J-35 production for the next 7 years or so at these 120+ per year rates. Pakistan probably won't be sold many if any J-35 for a while. With IAF not receiving any 5th gens, China will not want to spark an imbalance. Pakistan can defend itself well enough from India is good enough for China. If Pakistan is actually in genuine military trouble, China knows it can stand on its own it's a nuclear power after all and its main adversary is SRBM range away and at most MRBM ranged both of which Pakistan has. India has currently pretty poor to non-existent BMD. It has proven it has the capability of such but capability and sustained total defense is decades and many levels apart.

So this manned 5th gen idea is really not in PAF's near to medium term. Single engine manned 5th gen is impossible unless PAF buys Russia's new Mig if they ever make it. China won't build one for Pakistan and has no need for one. It'll be a waste of human resources to send experienced and capable engineers on a development cycle for something it already has much better versions of. UADF is the answer since it has plenty of advantages that manned fighers don't have and few drawbacks. Will China sell any is a question but in time if 5th gen is open, these UADF certainly are too. Problem is they are a network of network platform. Pakistan doesn't have the multilayered communication, command control and ISR platforms that make UADF operation effective.

Good news is that it doesn't need any of this stuff at all because its main threat is India which doesn't have a 5th gen and won't be getting one anytime soon. It does need to deter India so get the offensive weapons like suicide drones and be done. Get new shorads to defend key critical infrastructure from Indian attacks. Pointless targets can be undefended. It's unrealistic to buy enough shorad and lasers to defend everything. Drones are always cheaper. But China will be able to supply Pakistan with effective enough defenses even in small numbers. The balance is the deterrence and the defense. To counter more Rafales and possibly Su-57, PAF needs more J-10CE and ideally J-10CE with PL-17 will be wonderful. Whatever secret electronic warfare aircraft China has in the Y-9 platform will also be great. I feel China would never divulge details and sell any of the Y-9 based special mission aircraft and also they are PLAAF network specific it seems. Still I bet PAF will look into what there is in that space if there's anything worth pursing and allowed to be sold and bought.

More J-10CE and better weapons for J-10CE is the best for more IAF Rafales. Su-57 might need PAF to consider some other solutions like J-35.
Click to expand...

The concept being presented was for Pakistan to seek partnership with China on one of it's 5th gen stealth drones it presented in the recent parade. Or, some custom variant of those stealthy UCAVS for Pakistan, in a manned and unmanned configuration.

For that, our engineers will be trained in China, JF-17's manufacturing line will be re-configured to produce this new 5th gen design and we will start to move towards a 5th gen single engine stealthy platform, both manned and unmanned. Since it will happen with a joint project, we can get initial needed numbers built for Pakistan also and then build the rest ourselves. This way, we will start to move towards the future.

While this is going on, we will have J-35's may be 40, J-10C's in more numbers and the entire fleet of JF-17's upgraded to block III radars and PL-15 capability. But the real focus is to take the airforce into the future.
 
aurelianpilled said:
Ahh, my bad, it is just formal news coverage like the President visited the AVIC complex during his visit to China, first foreign head of state to visit the complex, briefing on J-10, JF-17, and J-20 - that's it

Edit- President reached the AVIC complex as the Supreme Commander of the Pakistan Armed Forces is included as well
Click to expand...
In one sentence: Pakistani President visits CAC.

BTW. The J-20 will be on display at the Changchun Air Show, allowing visitors to get up close and personal with the aircraft.
So, the Pakistani president is enjoying this privilege in advance...

Combined with previously revealed information, it's possible that CAC is developing a new version of the JF-17B (two-seat version) for Pakistan. It is likely that some of the J-20S's new tactical concepts will be transplanted to the new version of the JF-17B. Or, a new dedicated electronic warfare fighter could be developed for Pakistan based on the JF-17B platform, similar to the J-15D/J-16D but with slightly less power.
 
Last edited:
Michael said:
In one sentence: Pakistani President visits CAC.

BTW. The J-20 will be on display at the Changchun Air Show, allowing visitors to get up close and personal with the aircraft.
So, the Pakistani president is enjoying this privilege in advance...
Click to expand...

So, the J-20 has never been displayed, I mean the static display, in public air shows, right?
 
aurelianpilled said:
So, the J-20 has never been displayed, I mean the static display, in public air shows, right?
Click to expand...
Yes.
In previous Air show, spectators were not allowed to get up close and personal with the J-20 fighter jet; they could only watch from nearby.
This time, spectators will be allowed to get up close and personal with it for the first time.
 
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