PAF J-10CE News, Updates and Discussion

[MirageV3ff]

 

[RajaBaja]

Why do you always steer the conversation in other directions instead of addressing the underlying issue?

My last post was in response to your question about "designing a single-engine, fifth-generation fighter jet for Pakistan is a very, very simple matter." I explained the origins and basis of this view.

Now you've brought up the topic of "Pakistan needs China's help."

China has been helping Pakistan improve its technological capabilities. We have trained a large number of high-level technical personnel for Pakistan and transferred numerous technologies to Pakistan.

However, Pakistan simply does not want to, or does not have the conditions to, start from the ground up.

A simple example:
One of the prerequisites for 100% local production of the JF-17 fuselage is Pakistan's ability to produce and process aviation aluminum alloys.
One of the prerequisites for aircraft aluminum alloy production is Pakistan's ability to produce electrolytic aluminum.
One of the prerequisites for electrolytic aluminum production is Pakistan's ability to have an abundant power supply.
A prerequisite for an abundant power supply is Pakistan's ability to have large, affordable power plants and an advanced power supply and management system.
Ultimately, it all comes back to Pakistan's fundamental problems: issues of government governance and integrity, public security, and public education......

This is a complex and interconnected process. If any one link is not met, the ultimate goal cannot be achieved. I don't want to criticize Pakistan. That's not a topic I can engage in. But, if Pakistan wants to develop at the same rapid pace as China, simply receiving technology and funding from China will be meaningless.

1) The topic has never been building 5th gen fighter jets in a simple simple manner. A range of factories have to exist before a pulse manufacturing can produce it "easily". And establishing "pulse manufacturing" is also not easy. It took China 30 years to perfect it. We are just starting to explore it.

2) I've said two thing repeatedly for over a month on various threads.

First: Pakistan needs 5th gen stealth, single engine jets. That has become our core requirement due to events this year. We need to prepare for the future based on our threat scenarios. JF-17's and J-10C albeit very capable, don't cut it in front of the threat picture I've posted above and many times on various forums.

Second: Chinese Help = COLLABORATION! We are NOT asking you for MONEY. It's the same help you've received by the US and other Western companies build manufacturing in China and transferring their knowledge 40 years ago.
The latest manufacturing of defense and commercial equipment exists in China. So Pakistan will pay to get our people trained on these engineering processes, how to efficiently manufacture products, how automated, robotic assembly lines are setup, work, equipment installation, configuration, throughput, troubleshooting, etc.

Now in the context of the single engine stealth jet we are trying to explore, if an agreement is reached, we'll get Chinese built initial numbers while setup an assembly line in Pakistan. Self reliance is the key here. We want to build this industrial base locally so we can cover our national defense requirements ourselves and can collaborate with China in the future for new tech and enhancements.

 

[Pak-Warrior]

where I responded to you about Robotic manufacturing and my personal experience having seen it across 5 countries starting from back in late 90's.

Which 5 countries and what experience? Buddy you had lost your credibility when I caught you lying once -

So now everything what you say about personal experiences and stuff can't be trusted. Secondly, you are talking too much! and too unnecessary.

 

[lightning f57]

In 1962, Chinese troops decisively routed Indian forces in a border conflict. By then, the Chinese vanguard was within 300 kilometers of New Delhi, where residents had even begun building street forts. But the Chinese army chose to retreat rather than continue the offensive. Why? Because after China's defeat of India, the Soviet Union and the United States quickly ended the Cuban Missile Crisis, and both countries provided massive military assistance to India.

This is the harsh reality our Pakistani brothers need to recognize. Russia and Western countries already view Pakistan as an extension of Chinese influence. If the Indian army suffers a devastating defeat that shakes the foundations of the government's rule, Western countries and Russia will undoubtedly end the war in Ukraine immediately and provide large-scale military aid to India. In that event, China, Pakistan, and India will be plunged into a long-term, high-intensity, all-out war. Our enemy will not be just India, but the entire West plus Russia.

This is why I have consistently emphasized that it is not in Pakistan's interest to actively provoke an arms race or escalate conflict. Pakistan faces completely different enemies in defensive and offensive warfare. Given these circumstances, Pakistan's fighter jet upgrade program should be carefully paced and should not significantly outpace India's.

I think your logic is sound, however Russia will not abandon its war with Ukraine as it see it as an existential threat from Nato, for India.

It does seem to me the Chinese leadership has a similar view to what you state they may not want Pak to have an edge over India. From my perspective Pak require an edge to deal with a threat much bigger and stronger conventionally you cant rely on nukes they are end game weapons.

So Pak needs to procure 5th Gen fighters whether from China, or Turkey or Europe and they need to develop advance missiles to hit enemies 000,s kms away. The economy is the issue and economic reforms we hope are being accelerated. If China/Pak have discovered large oil/gas in Pak waters this will be a game changer as well.

 

[m52k85]

Lol, the Zardari visit is more likely to show him this is serious work and they dont have an extra 10% margin lying around to share, than any talks of moving the J-10 production line to Pakistan.

 

[MH.Yang]

I think your logic is sound, however Russia will not abandon its war with Ukraine as it see it as an existential threat from Nato, for India.

It does seem to me the Chinese leadership has a similar view to what you state they may not want Pak to have an edge over India. From my perspective Pak require an edge to deal with a threat much bigger and stronger conventionally you cant rely on nukes they are end game weapons.

So Pak needs to procure 5th Gen fighters whether from China, or Turkey or Europe and they need to develop advance missiles to hit enemies 000,s kms away. The economy is the issue and economic reforms we hope are being accelerated. If China/Pak have discovered large oil/gas in Pak waters this will be a game changer as well.

China does not mind engaging in a war of attrition with the Western bloc, but the battlefield should be in the Western Pacific, not South Asia. Forcing China to cross the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau for supply is very disadvantageous to China.

 

[Reichmarshal]

Their is no Jf17 block 4 and PFX is 4.5th generation medium weight plane. Pakistan needs more J10CEs but it's Chinese plane and we cannot coproduce it, this is the reason for PFX, the 5th generation plane has not much information available on it.

Block 3 is 4.5....pfx will be 4.5 + (4.75)

 

[Mighty_Dragon_Strike]

@RajaBaja

dear: can you list down top 10 major problems in Pak. in aero. sector?!

have you ever worked in an aero sector?

are you a professional aero. engineer or atleast aspire to be one?!

are you really aware of latest aero. developments?

IDK, your posts have loads of 'pre-assembled' words (portraying no thinking before words were generated!)

 

[niubi]

Since when was Israel an existential threat to Pakistan? Why would Israel base F-35s in India to risk Pakistan dropping nukes on Israel?

Israel wants little to do with Pakistan for now and India won't have 5th gen for a long, long time. China will have at least two manned 6th generation fighters flying in PLAAF before IAF begins operating a 5th gen.

Easy for China to develop a single engined 5th gen. Not worth the time money or skills. No more 5th gen fighters other than J-20 and J-35 types will come from China. UADF will accompany PLAAF and 6th generation fighters will have their own next generation UADF.

Pakistan will at most be getting J-35. Pakistan will likely be receiving favours from China if this is the case due to strategic cooperation and the need for J-35s. If there is no need, there won't be J-35s. The situation is carefully assessed by both sides and coordinated. Don't doubt this one second. India is talking about buying 100 Rafales and Su-57 but until they receive, the situation is just assessed. If they receive, PAF will receive balancing force. India must be the instigator of inbalance, not China. If Pakistan acts on its own, it is by its own desire. China does prefer a neutral India and it's already bad enough that Pakistan and India have higher tensions and chances for larger scale shooting war. Again, China is not looking towards the west, it is looking towards the east. Core to its long term security concerns is being able to militarily deter the US while spending the least on military so that it can properly develop everything else. Once that's achieved, military supremacy is a by-product just like 1950s to 2010s USA.

J-10CE additional units is possible due to IAF having 36 Rafales. PAF should have around the same number of J-10CE and plenty of missiles at its disposal.

One thing not mentioned is that money is one thing but all these smaller units of missiles and fighters China sales at loan and domestic price or close to domestic price is at some point Pakistan's security is more important than some small cost.

Goal is to develop and get wealthier. Have better institutions than the US, better industries and generate more and better technology. Once that happens, military security is guaranteed, give it more time and Taiwan peaceful reunification becomes a negotiation and then happens without a single shot. None of this can happen if hot wars get triggered or if too much brainpower and resources is dumped into military development. That goes for allies too. Pakistan is pretty much an informal ally. Why Pakistan worries about being threatened by India is beyond me. What Pakistan should indeed do is build up masses of suicide drones. China must assist Pakistan is developing this so it can counter India's attrition drone attacks with the same. China can help Pakistan develop more jam resistant suicide drones while providing Pakistan with some counter drone tech for critical places.

 

[MH.Yang]

I think your logic is sound, however Russia will not abandon its war with Ukraine as it see it as an existential threat from Nato, for India.

It does seem to me the Chinese leadership has a similar view to what you state they may not want Pak to have an edge over India. From my perspective Pak require an edge to deal with a threat much bigger and stronger conventionally you cant rely on nukes they are end game weapons.

So Pak needs to procure 5th Gen fighters whether from China, or Turkey or Europe and they need to develop advance missiles to hit enemies 000,s kms away. The economy is the issue and economic reforms we hope are being accelerated. If China/Pak have discovered large oil/gas in Pak waters this will be a game changer as well.

Let me recount another historical event involving the Chinese government.

In 1949, Mao Zedong ordered the PLA's Third Field Army to assemble a massive supply base in Fujian in preparation for the recapture of Taiwan. That same year, the PLA's Fourth Field Army returned ethnic Korean divisions to the North Korean government. Because these three divisions were comprised of battle-hardened veterans, the North Korean government suddenly possessed a combat capability that crushed the South Korean government.

After gaining a superior military capability, North Korea, instigated by the Soviet government and despite opposition from the Chinese government, launched an offensive against the South Korean government in June 1950. Initially, the war went smoothly, with North Korean forces completely defeating South Korean forces and nearly occupying all of South Korea. However, the United States launched a landing operation at Inchon, attacking the North Korean army from behind. The North Korean army collapsed and retreated to the Chinese-North Korean border, leaving the US military to virtually occupy all of North Korea.

The Chinese government was caught in a dilemma. The PLA was ready to retake Taiwan, but the United States was already bombing Chinese territory. Ultimately, the Chinese government had no choice but to give up liberating Taiwan and prioritize the Korean War. After the outbreak of the Korean War, the United States immediately used warships to blockade the Taiwan Strait.

Therefore, in the eyes of the Chinese, it was the reckless actions of the North Korean government that caused China to fail to resolve the Taiwan issue in a timely manner.

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[NGAD IS THE BEST]

Since when was Israel an existential threat to Pakistan? Why would Israel base F-35s in India to risk Pakistan dropping nukes on Israel?

Israel wants little to do with Pakistan for now and India won't have 5th gen for a long, long time. China will have at least two manned 6th generation fighters flying in PLAAF before IAF begins operating a 5th gen.

Easy for China to develop a single engined 5th gen. Not worth the time money or skills. No more 5th gen fighters other than J-20 and J-35 types will come from China. UADF will accompany PLAAF and 6th generation fighters will have their own next generation UADF.

Pakistan will at most be getting J-35. Pakistan will likely be receiving favours from China if this is the case due to strategic cooperation and the need for J-35s. If there is no need, there won't be J-35s. The situation is carefully assessed by both sides and coordinated. Don't doubt this one second. India is talking about buying 100 Rafales and Su-57 but until they receive, the situation is just assessed. If they receive, PAF will receive balancing force. India must be the instigator of inbalance, not China. If Pakistan acts on its own, it is by its own desire. China does prefer a neutral India and it's already bad enough that Pakistan and India have higher tensions and chances for larger scale shooting war. Again, China is not looking towards the west, it is looking towards the east. Core to its long term security concerns is being able to militarily deter the US while spending the least on military so that it can properly develop everything else. Once that's achieved, military supremacy is a by-product just like 1950s to 2010s USA.

J-10CE additional units is possible due to IAF having 36 Rafales. PAF should have around the same number of J-10CE and plenty of missiles at its disposal.

One thing not mentioned is that money is one thing but all these smaller units of missiles and fighters China sales at loan and domestic price or close to domestic price is at some point Pakistan's security is more important than some small cost.

Goal is to develop and get wealthier. Have better institutions than the US, better industries and generate more and better technology. Once that happens, military security is guaranteed, give it more time and Taiwan peaceful reunification becomes a negotiation and then happens without a single shot. None of this can happen if hot wars get triggered or if too much brainpower and resources is dumped into military development. That goes for allies too. Pakistan is pretty much an informal ally. Why Pakistan worries about being threatened by India is beyond me. What Pakistan should indeed do is build up masses of suicide drones. China must assist Pakistan is developing this so it can counter India's attrition drone attacks with the same. China can help Pakistan develop more jam resistant suicide drones while providing Pakistan with some counter drone tech for critical places.

Remember when we tested the nukes back in 1999 whole IAF (Israel air force) and its pilots sitting in cockpit of their jets in India

 

[niubi]

Remember when we tested the nukes back in 1999 whole IAF (Israel air force) and its pilots sitting in cockpit of their jets in India

And now you have those nukes to guarantee they won't be sitting in cockpits in India.

Even so, do you think China would let Israel and India man handle Pakistan? Israel the nation that has been one of the promoters of countless anti-China narratives and propaganda operations and institutions for the last 2 decades at least?

If there comes a day there are Israel F-35s in India for whatever reason for such a development, China would know from a 10,000 miles away. Israeli operated F-35s in India is fair game for Chinese operated J-20s in Pakistan. Such a scenario will never happen though.

I am not opposed to PAF getting some pilots trained up well with J-35 in preparation for J-35s eventually getting into PAF. I'd love that. But this isn't something to show. It needs to be done in the shadows and without India's awareness. There's no point in aggravating India, a much wealthier and larger nation than Pakistan.

When India finds itself operating 5th gen, PAF can quickly find itself receiving J-35 and mysteriously being very well trained with the J-35 and its weapons, with good tactics already well formed and practised.

 

[lightning f57]

Let me recount another historical event involving the Chinese government.

In 1949, Mao Zedong ordered the PLA's Third Field Army to assemble a massive supply base in Fujian in preparation for the recapture of Taiwan. That same year, the PLA's Fourth Field Army returned ethnic Korean divisions to the North Korean government. Because these three divisions were comprised of battle-hardened veterans, the North Korean government suddenly possessed a combat capability that crushed the South Korean government.

After gaining a superior military capability, North Korea, instigated by the Soviet government and despite opposition from the Chinese government, launched an offensive against the South Korean government in June 1950. Initially, the war went smoothly, with North Korean forces completely defeating South Korean forces and nearly occupying all of South Korea. However, the United States launched a landing operation at Inchon, attacking the North Korean army from behind. The North Korean army collapsed and retreated to the Chinese-North Korean border, leaving the US military to virtually occupy all of North Korea.

The Chinese government was caught in a dilemma. The PLA was ready to retake Taiwan, but the United States was already bombing Chinese territory. Ultimately, the Chinese government had no choice but to give up liberating Taiwan and prioritize the Korean War. After the outbreak of the Korean War, the United States immediately used warships to blockade the Taiwan Strait.

Therefore, in the eyes of the Chinese, it was the reckless actions of the North Korean government that caused China to fail to resolve the Taiwan issue in a timely manner.

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We cant predict the future, but Pakistan is unlikely going to be invading India by procuring a few squadrons of the J35 with some advance missiles. The disparity is still too huge conventionally.

 

[JamD]

@JamD for shits and gigs if you're bored- redesigning a J-20 to be a single engine fighter is allegedly a "very simple thing- nobody on this forum has your level of expertise, how do you feel about this lol

Nice try, I'm not that easy to bait lol

 

[Ak01]

Nice try, I'm not that easy to bait lol

i will get you one day mate