Turkish Engine Programs
- Thread starter hyperman
- Start date
Merzifonlu
Registered Member
IMO, most important announcement here was that work is underway on the "TS-3000," which will deliver 3,000 hp or perhaps more. This means that, with the exception of the first 10 helicopters with Ukraine engines, we will not be purchasing any other engines for the T-925 from foreign countries.
hyperman
INT'L MOD
- Thread starter
- #273
I think the redesigned T925 helicopter is a Blackhawk Clone and will likely be using the T700-TEI-701D which is License produced in Turkey, they removed the ramp and went with the more traditional layout, and its basically a T-70, just without the License fee to Lockheed/Sikorsky. The new engine will be a dropin replacement like the T901 is supposed to be a replacement for the T700.
Its similar to the Gokbey program, which is in production with the LHTEC CTS800-4A with the TS-1400 that will be a dropin replacement when it goes into mass production.
Merzifonlu
Registered Member
No, i don't think so.
The USA will never ever allow the use of GE-made engines. If they had such intentions, they wouldn't have killed the T70 program.
What will happen is this: The first 10 helicopters will be produced in the LRIP phase using Ukrainian engines. These will be delivered to the General Directorate of Forestry. Then, mass production will begin with domestically produced engines.
hyperman
INT'L MOD
- Thread starter
- #275
The LHTEC CTS800-4A license is there, thats whats allowing the Gokbey to be produced an inducted. If they didn't want to allow engines, why would they allow the LHTEC CTS800? They are also negotiating to allow GE404 production in Turkey for Hurjet, not to mention the GEF110 production for KAAN. I don't think T700-TEI-701D will be blocked, it doesn't need congressional approval, b/c the License is already given and the production line is there. It makes no sense to redesign the T925 otherwise, that redesign was triggered with concerns over Ukraine not being able to deliver engines in any significant capacity to mass produce, b/c of the war. The T700-TEI-701D didn't produce enough thrust for the version with the ramp which is heavier. So they downrated the design, now its more like an S-70/Blackhawk rather than an S-92.
The License issue with Lockheed/Sikorsky is a different matter. And frankly I think its a good thing its cancelled, b/c Lockheed/Sikorsky isn't needed anymore. Aselsan was already producing the avionics for the T-70 before and they were licensing the shell from Lockheed, but with the Development of Gokbey, the infrastructure and technical knowledge already exists to build a clean design via TAI. Only missing part which is not currently replaceable right now is GE, which is needed for the engine.
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Merzifonlu
Registered Member
LHTEC permits were issued before Noah's Ark! They wouldn't issue the same permits under current conditions. And how many engines have they even authorized? Those engines are enough for 20 Gökbeys. The majority of Gökbey production will be done with the TS-1400.
The USA has gone off the rails in the last 10 years. In fact, I think she's returned to original form.
Permits for the T700 engines were obtained for the S70. New permits are required for use on any other platform.
They're not serious about either the F404 or the F110. They're hoping we'll waste time by waiting in hope. They're employing a similar tactic to the Altay engine. We wasted time hoping the Germans would provide the engine. I hope we're not doing the same stupid thing with the F404 engine and F110 engine.
hyperman
INT'L MOD
- Thread starter
- #277
Hurjet cannot be produced without the F404, the only other alternative engines are the Ej200 and something like the F414 that South Korea is building via Hanwha Aerospace. And both those option require several year for testing to certify with the new engine. The hope here is that this is not the Germany situation. I think there is a good chance this is not going to be like last time, but you never know.
Merzifonlu
Registered Member
If we haven't been pursuing a joint program with the Spanish for EJ-200 integration on Hürjet in the past two or three years, the Hürjet will become another "Altay case".
I'm almost certain they won't sell F404 engines. If we're pursuing that program, the Hürjet equipped with the EJ-200 engine will enter mass production. That's the only way out I can see.
hyperman
INT'L MOD
- Thread starter
- #279
Germany is an owner in the EJ200 project BTW, they make parts and have 33% ownership. So the Altay situation is also possible there.
EuroJet Turbo GmbH - Wikipedia
If US boycotts, Germans will almost certainly boycott, so EJ200 isn't really a solution if the F404 or F414 is blocked.
Merzifonlu
Registered Member
Yes, you are right. The question is whether Germany truly wants to arm itself in a way that frees it from dependence on the USA. If Germany going to pursue this kind of armament policy, Germany needs single-engine aircraft&drones. In other words, Germany and EU needs the EJ-200, which can operate singly, not in pairs. The most direct way to achieve this is to integrate the EJ-200 into the Hürjet.Germany is an owner in the EJ200 project BTW, they make parts and have 33% ownership. So the Altay situation is also possible there.
EuroJet Turbo GmbH - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
If US boycotts, Germans will almost certainly boycott, so EJ200 isn't really a solution if the F404 or F414 is blocked.
We were very lucky with the Altay at one point; we were able to tolerate the delay with the Altay because the importance of tanks was significantly diminished by drones. Similarly, I think the delay due to Hürjet's F404 engines not being available will not be that significant. Since the Hürjet will be a trainer, we can tolerate the delay with that too.
But the Kaan shouldn't be delayed! A Kaan delay would cost us dearly! I hope we have a plan B regarding the F110. Ultimately, we can't trust anyone. We must produce domestically produced engines to replace both the F404 and F110 engines.
hyperman
INT'L MOD
- Thread starter
- #281
Turkey has designated $1.5 Billion Dollars for the Research and Development of the TF35000 engine for the KAAN.
KAAN Engine and Global Examples: R&D Budget Comparison
The prototype production cost of the indigenous engine developed by TEI for Turkey’s 5th generation fighter jet KAAN is estimated to reach 1.5 billion dollars. This figure, when compared to global examples, actually presents a fairly similar picture.
F-22 Raptor Engine: Pratt & Whitney F119
•The U.S.’s 5th generation air superiority fighter jet, the F-22 Raptor, uses the F119 engine developed by Pratt & Whitney.
•The development costs of this engine were covered by an R&D investment exceeding 1.5 billion dollars.
•High supercruise capability and a design focused on low radar signature are the primary factors increasing program costs.
F-35 Lightning II Engine: Pratt & Whitney F135
•The F135 engine, developed for the F-35 Lightning II, also bears the Pratt & Whitney signature.
•The development process began with an R&D budget of 1.4 billion dollars, with costs rising to 1.6 billion dollars with subsequent updates and modernizations.
•The latest variant of the engine has become a critical component of the program by enabling integration with different blocks of the F-35.
KAAN Engine and Global Examples: R&D Budget Comparison
The prototype production cost of the indigenous engine developed by TEI for Turkey’s 5th generation fighter jet KAAN is estimated to reach 1.5 billion dollars. This figure, when compared to global examples, actually presents a fairly similar picture.
F-22 Raptor Engine: Pratt & Whitney F119
•The U.S.’s 5th generation air superiority fighter jet, the F-22 Raptor, uses the F119 engine developed by Pratt & Whitney.
•The development costs of this engine were covered by an R&D investment exceeding 1.5 billion dollars.
•High supercruise capability and a design focused on low radar signature are the primary factors increasing program costs.
F-35 Lightning II Engine: Pratt & Whitney F135
•The F135 engine, developed for the F-35 Lightning II, also bears the Pratt & Whitney signature.
•The development process began with an R&D budget of 1.4 billion dollars, with costs rising to 1.6 billion dollars with subsequent updates and modernizations.
•The latest variant of the engine has become a critical component of the program by enabling integration with different blocks of the F-35.
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Foinikas
Elite Member
Merzifonlu
Registered Member
@Foinikas
Don't take this seriously.
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There's only one remaining problem for us regarding the engine: the TF35000 engine.
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All diesel engines are either in mass production or close to completing testing, including the Altay's BATU Power Pack. Also TS-1400 engines, which are gearing up for mass production.
Among the turbine engines, only the TF-10000 and TF35000 have yet to reach the prototype stage, with their first prototypes expected in 2026 and full operation anticipated within five years.
IMO, the TF35000 engine is likely to begin operating as soon as it achieves the thrust of the F110 engine, even if it doesn't reach full power.
In five years, we focus will shift to the cryogenic rocket engine, which seems on track for timely completion.
Don't take this seriously.
------------------------------
There's only one remaining problem for us regarding the engine: the TF35000 engine.
------------------------------------------------
All diesel engines are either in mass production or close to completing testing, including the Altay's BATU Power Pack. Also TS-1400 engines, which are gearing up for mass production.
Among the turbine engines, only the TF-10000 and TF35000 have yet to reach the prototype stage, with their first prototypes expected in 2026 and full operation anticipated within five years.
IMO, the TF35000 engine is likely to begin operating as soon as it achieves the thrust of the F110 engine, even if it doesn't reach full power.
In five years, we focus will shift to the cryogenic rocket engine, which seems on track for timely completion.
