Pakistan-Saudi Arabia mutual defense pact: News & Discussion

[Meengla]

I have been shocked myself at the support some Indians.... who I didn't think had any strong opinion... have suddenly showed Israel
It was kind of tucked away, I think it came out because it looked as if no one would stop Israel, and the Arabs were supporting so it seemed okay
By the way, Israel is allowing Indian labour to replace Arab labor, that suggests a strong level of trust

It was counter productive for the Indian govt to risk its enormous economic benefits getting from the rich Arab countries by trying to appease Israel with which there are only a couple of benefits: Weapons/Intelligence against Pakistan and access to the American political class. But those benefits are still far out weighted by the benefits from the rich Arab countries, including the 9 million Indians sending tons of money back to India every month. India didn't have to please Israel like that: What choices did the Israelis have if India was not as pleasing to them?? It is not like Israel has many friends.

So the only conclusion I could draw is that Indians were irrational because of the Civilizational Revivalism since Modi came to power a decade ago and such irrational policies translated into stupid geopolitics: It would be one thing to dislike Pakistan over a bilateral dispute, but totally stupid and counter productive to expand that to anti-Muslim on a regional scale.

 

[harpy1]

Therefore I ask again, will you now embrace Israel openly and warmly in this predicament?

This is a Saudi and Pak much hyped defense agreement your primeminster is saying an attack on either state is attack on the other

India is a non involved by stander and very bemused just like Europe or Japan or indeed the rest of the world

Who is Saudi threatened by were you Pakistanis say you will.come and protect
What have you committed too

You don't want to say it
You have to take on USA and Israel or Iran
It needs your help for nothing else
You signed the treaty so are you ready to forfill this

We Indians have great relations with Israel and Russia we take no heed what USA thinks or the saudis or gulf states
Every relationship is bi lateral for India
we are too smart to sign a defense pact to fight somebody elses war

 

[krash]

Quite frankly the issue of sects in one country or multiples
can easily be seen by the direction their religious leadership chooses to take.

For e.g see the “hell tour park” in Iran - launched a few weeks prior to Israel’s romp around the country.

Certain “Sufi sects in India painted a fat dude as a devil in one event - others in Pakistan are having raves complete with glow in the dark bands.

And as for the hatched conspiracy by Qadiyanis - just checking out recent “initiation” ceremonies tells me we’re in scientology territory at this point.

Meanwhile mainstream sunni types are busy in 30 second tik tok takes for clout.

Not saying many of these sects in the past were not involved in promoting vested interests of forces outside Pakistan but then various vested interests in Pakistan have used state messaging to promote interests.

Mark of a failing, if not failed, society. It's the "other", the one below, or the one over there. Surely can't be us.

In my opinion, the phenomenon is innate, born from textbook collective cognitive dissonance against incontestable feelings of inadequacy. This member had no reason to pin it on the Ahmadis...but he did, of his own accord. Take the Ahmadis out and they will lock on to another for another reason, then another, and then another. Meanwhile these momineen will remain the primary source of corruption in the land and the Deen. The religious and political "leaderships" are just vultures ready to commandeer it to serve their own heinous purposes.

Does feel good when you can piss on the grave stone of the only Nobel Laureate the country has produced, even if you can't read what's written on it.

 

[Sam6536]

That's a good post and the main point is above

You suggested and spoke as if you would take China on.

There is not a chance you will be anything like China, different people, different capabilities

So the best bet for being a counterweight is militarily

Which you do not have the stomach for, major Nations invariably have to make sacrifices, it's just what happens


USA, Russia have all committed troops to protect their interests.

So once the Americans felt that they had given India a good old try, enough is enough, no room for pretenders

Joining QUAD was likely a decision post the whole Doklam scenario in 2017.

It never really amounted to anything other than a couple of exercises and logistics agreements. India proactively advocated "QUAD" is not an Anti China alliance lol, whatever that meant.

Japan and Australia barely have a military and would never in a million years fight China directly. Why would Indians do so? To be another Ukraine?

Only America remains, post Trump they are retreating from Asia, it doesn't make any sense for India to stand against China alone. Whatever the Americans wanted India to do, it wouldn't do it. We don't even buy that much American equipment.

India-China issue is strictly a border issue, it's not something ideological like Indo-Pak issue. The former can be more readily addressed. Considering we have no weapon agreement in place shows that both sides don't want an armed conflict.

India's biggest strength is it's national unity in face of adversity. Call it Nationalism if you will. It's the same for Pakistan but your guys are more involved with the affairs in ME and joining military alliances. Now this is a dual sided sword.

Historically Indian Nationalism has only been directed towards Pakistan. A random Indian won't any feel animosity towards a Chinese per se in the long term.

In public spheres of life China-Indian people to people relations are quite pleasant however limited they may be right now.

 

[Distant_Observer]

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[r3alist]

So the only conclusion I could draw is that Indians were irrational because of the Civilizational Revivalism since Modi came to power a decade ago and such irrational policies translated into stupid geopolitics: It would be one thing to dislike Pakistan over a bilateral dispute, but totally stupid and counter productive to expand that to anti-Muslim on a regional scale.

Indians are not irrational, they are very calculating, but just make the wrong calculations. Trying to be too clever by half, sometimes you need principles, because principles can act as a guard against being too cunning.


My interpretation is Ukraine and then Gaza changed a lot for India, made the balancing act impossible

Furthermore, America must have had a timer in mind with respect to India taking China's seriously


All happened at once

But crucially, India clearly was not going to posture aggressively versus China - ok thanks but no thanks.

not that the Americans are stupid because in built within the relationship were incentives that can easily be pulled away, this is what we are seeing now.

Fine if you don't want to be a meaningful ally, please have your non alignment and usa take back our generosity .... Enjoy your non alignment


The lack of principles, on the Ukraine war they refused to support the global North

With Gaza they turn a blind eye to the global South



A massive nothing burger, with so-called interests that no one cares for

The Pakistan skirmish, also usefully dented French military equipment

Without making a value judgement, Pakistan understands that you need commitment to get something out, and so does the rest of the world compared to India

the last episode was very painful, the soviets, but a nuclear program was achieved


This time round, Pakistan is wiser and more diversified

 

[r3alist]

India-China issue is strictly a border issue, it's not something ideological like Indo-Pak issue.

But that's not what you have told the Americans, you were meant to have a mutual goal to contain China

I don't know exactly but what do your national security documents define as your major threat, China or Pakistan?

Your nuclear programme is ostensibly meant to be directed in greater part to China, no?

Once it became obvious it was all a bluff, then necessarily India will have to be downgraded

What did you expect, the Americans to just laugh It off and India to carry on whilst India is still one of the key pillars keeping Russia afloat

 

[r3alist]

This is a Saudi and Pak much hyped defense agreement your primeminster is saying an attack on either state is attack on the other

India is a non involved by stander and very bemused just like Europe or Japan or indeed the rest of the world

Who is Saudi threatened by were you Pakistanis say you will.come and protect
What have you committed too

You don't want to say it
You have to take on USA and Israel or Iran
It needs your help for nothing else
You signed the treaty so are you ready to forfill this

We Indians have great relations with Israel and Russia we take no heed what USA thinks or the saudis or gulf states
Every relationship is bi lateral for India
we are too smart to sign a defense pact to fight somebody elses war

At this stage you're just talking to yourself.

Sure, carry on being smart, you can be so smart that the world will forget you have any potential value

 

[Vkdindian1]

It was counter productive for the Indian govt to risk its enormous economic benefits getting from the rich Arab countries by trying to appease Israel with which there are only a couple of benefits: Weapons/Intelligence against Pakistan and access to the American political class. But those benefits are still far out weighted by the benefits from the rich Arab countries, including the 9 million Indians sending tons of money back to India every month. India didn't have to please Israel like that: What choices did the Israelis have if India was not as pleasing to them?? It is not like Israel has many friends.

So the only conclusion I could draw is that Indians were irrational because of the Civilizational Revivalism since Modi came to power a decade ago and such irrational policies translated into stupid geopolitics: It would be one thing to dislike Pakistan over a bilateral dispute, but totally stupid and counter productive to expand that to anti-Muslim on a regional scale.

The whole situation is a little more comely then envisaged here.
There are many nations who have maintained a working relationships with two adversaries.
A very good example here is Turkish-Israel equality. Till recently, Turkey had a raging bilateral business with Israel, while it was politically a very open anti-Israel policy. Was there any outrage at this double speak? Did it impact Turkey-Pakistan relationship?
Turkey and Saudi have almost non functional relationship. Pakistan and Saudi have a raging one. Would Turkey have an issue with this Pak-Saudi treaty?

Compared to that Indo-Israel one isn’t much different.
Moreover, Saudi Arabia isn’t a threat to Israel in any way at all. Just because India buys military equipment from Israel, it isn’t likely to sour our equation with Saudi’s.

 

[hussain0216]

I ask again
Are you ready to risk your nation and people against Israel
You are seeing already Israel is military super power in this region
What have you signed up for ?
Defending Saudi ..
Saudi has two enemies
Israel and Iran
You ready for this commitment

Israel isn't a superpower, it's propped up by the U.S which is a superpower

Without the U.S, Israel would collapse and would have collapsed decades ago


The countries of the region need a new security arrangement that goes beyond the west

Pakistan has multiple projects, but funding is always a issue, so this security arrangement helps Pakistan obtain funding for multiple projects that can help both nations

We also have security arrangements with China, Turkey etc, that's why in conflict they immediately stepped in

A multi -state alliance is already up and running, it just needs to progress on its path and eventually it will form a powerful group


If the hindutva extremists in India and the Zionists in Israel are a threat then it's better to prepare for these enemies then stick your head into the ground


The west has a demographic crises
As that plays out they are becoming irrational extremists

Alternatives are now required

 

[brazensword]

Take one look at Pakistan's exports and there is definitely no brains to drain.

If they can get their average IQ up to triple figures then maybe but we are atleast 20-30 years away if all goes well.

Pakistan has best brains. In GHQ. We don't need more brains.

 

[brazensword]

holly hell yeahh!! You forgot to mention, when our pilots flew over Israel they opened the cockpit and showed middle finger to Israeli military too ......

That was Shahbaz Shareef by the way. In a negative 4g dive.

 

[TAC]

India will do what it always has done from 1947 it will Try and balance relationships

India is a strategic ally of Israel deep in defense technology and Israel has always assisted India ...
I just can't see this changing ever ..

As for Saudi and the gulf states like UAE or Kuwait etc they are massive trade partners ten times what Pakistan is to them ...Trade is massive India will.use this leverage as a massive market to keep Saudi and gulf states neutral

Saudi or gulf have never backed Pakistan against Kashmir let's see if this changes ...now

My question to you Pakistanis Which I don't see any one dare answer
When a rogue Israel attacks Kuwait or Saudi ....what is Pakistan going to do about it ...
Are you going to rattle nuke sabre at Israel
Because the following day Israel will almost certainly treat you as a existentional threat

Pakistan may have joined the Arab Israeli conflict which is destined to take out the entire mid East one day ....
It's two way defense pact
Not Saudi just give you have to spill blood and risk all for them too

Still desperately trying to unravel what has already happened as a result of Indians cocking up Sindoor eh?
The whole point of the agreement is detterance to enemy’s of both nations. Given what Pakistan did to India with very limited funds ( Has India even responded to the 4 Ra-fail serial numbers yet or still staying quite?) I’m sure they can do much more for SA with limitless funds no?
As for Kuwait, don’t know where u pulled that from because they’re not part of the agreement.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Pakistan has best brains. In GHQ. We don't need more brains.

lol - that is very very very very very questionable.

The best brains of "any" society NEVER NEVER NEVER go into the armed forces. Not even in Pakistan. They always use private life and look to benefit from their intellect...

 

[brazensword]

lol - that is very very very very very questionable.

The best brains of "any" society NEVER NEVER NEVER go into the armed forces. Not even in Pakistan. They always use private life and look to benefit from their intellect...

I mean they're giving everyone else a run for their money. We bow down to our 150 IQ overlords.