Pakistan-Saudi Arabia mutual defense pact: News & Discussion

[Oscar]

Most of the time, the Turkey-Israel relationship wasn't as much in focus until the Gaza slaughter started almost two years ago; until then, skirmishes here and there involving Israel, where Israel would 'mow the lawn' in Gaza, the Turks would make some noises, but things would be back to normal between the two countries. The Israel-Gaza conflict was / is on a different level not only as far as the atrocities but also astronomically more noticed because of the number of countries involved since October 2023--and that was on top of the Russia-Ukraine war. My point is: Turkey has been in the spotlight much more now.


India and Israel relationship is much different. Very different. We all look at things through tribal ways and so most of the Muslim world see India+Israel as two Non Muslim entities on one side against Muslims on the other side. That's not dissimilar to how the white Christian Europeans see 'the others'. We are all basically tribal.

The Turkish change has been more driven by the focus on and by Erdogan. Turkey otherwise still had a lukewarm simmer always in play with Israel. The Gaza conflict has sealed it to a bit but the calculus is also more of Turkish independent reassertion instead of towing the NATO lean in these issues eventually.

As for the India Israel relationship - it was cultivated by Israel during nuclear sanctions as India went around arms dealers just as Pakistan did and from Kargil onwards it has been a very natural alignment because of Israel’s concerns regarding Pakistan.

 

[Vkdindian1]

We all look at things through tribal ways and so most of the Muslim world see India+Israel as two Non Muslim entities on one side against Muslims on the other side. That's not dissimilar to how the white Christian Europeans see 'the others'. We are all basically tribal.

My assessment is that, this tribal way of thinking has changed with most of the Muslim world. This change has been rapid in the last decade or so.
Thats how the OIC has stopped supporting Pakistan on Kashmir issue, it’s most emotive issue.
This change has primarily happened due to trade becoming the driving factor and not the religion. All these nations have realised that, they have to prepare for post oil/gas economies.
That’s why they have committed huge investments in Indian economy to get toe hold into that future.

 

[r3alist]

My assessment is that, this tribal way of thinking has changed with most of the Muslim world. This change has been rapid in the last decade or so.
Thats how the OIC has stopped supporting Pakistan on Kashmir issue, it’s most emotive issue.
This change has primarily happened due to trade becoming the driving factor and not the religion. All these nations have realised that, they have to prepare for post oil/gas economies.
That’s why they have committed huge investments in Indian economy to get toe hold into that future.

I think you have understood nothing about the region in the last two years.

I do not see huge investment within India going forward.

 

[RajaBaja]

Lol
Now he is desperate
Lets add the context for these people so your vague attempt to ask the question isn’t lost

The actual question is
If people leave and there isn’t a backfill of equal skill and experience available in your region
What happens ?

You didn't explain to me the US "clearance system" that ensures no one leaves a sensitive project? Give me details on this "clearance system". I am waiting........ you throw terms without knowing the background so this needs to be discussed. C'mon, quickly, write details. It should be easy as you "seem to know it all" Google and ChatGPT won't help you here. This only comes with practical experience.

Also, I debate on facts. Sadly, we don't have Pakistanis that high up and it's a fact. There is like a few you can count on fingers out of millions. So let me find one senior person here and he will explain what I did and you, with your little gang is denying because you guys haven't been at that level.

If you don't think I have credentials, than you should be happy that I am asking a THIRD party to come in and explain to all of us right? Why you flippin'?

 

[Oscar]

There’s nothing wrong with what you’re saying. It’s possible that for a limited project replacements can be found.

The issue is whether sending more workers to Saudi Arabia and the GCC is a solution for Pakistan’s lack of development.

In the macro picture, a country like Pakistan, with 250 million people, needs large scale investment along with more educational institutions to kick start economic development. A couple of million jobs in the ME cannot be a substitute for internal reform.

When Pakistan won the 4-day skirmish with India it enhanced the reputation of the military and weakened the demand for democracy. SAM became a Field Marshal and his position became secure.

The danger is that the Pak-Saudi deal will allow the rulers to deflect any demand for internal reforms by creating hope for jobs in the ME. I can see that the Sharifs and Zardaris are now more secure than before. It means that the status quo will be maintained in Pakistan, meaning no economic development. I can’t see businessmen investing in Pakistan when these characters are running the country.

How will you find replacements of equal caliber if none exist?

Replacements aren’t the same as equivalent.
Removing Akhtar from the field and replacing him with Yahya isn’t the only problem here.

You cannot substitute a person with ten years in machine learning with another with ten years in identity management just because they are both graduates.

From a corporate perspective, brain drain is a major concern because it means losing the company’s most skilled and experienced employees. Even if there are qualified candidates available in the market, the loss of institutional knowledge, creativity, and deep expertise can severely weaken a company's ability to innovate and compete. When talented employees leave, it disrupts project continuity, lowers morale among those who remain, and increases costs related to hiring and training replacements. This turnover often slows down the company’s progress and can negatively affect profitability and long-term growth, making brain drain much more than just a simple matter of filling open positions.
Pakistan faces significant outflows of skilled professionals who seek better pay, working conditions, and career opportunities abroad. This exodus creates a shortage of skilled labor in vital sectors like healthcare, IT, and engineering, which slows economic development and innovation nationally. Even when talent exists locally, the departure of experienced professionals and mentors leaves a gap that newcomers cannot easily fill. Consequently, brain drain impacts the country’s overall productivity,

Opening it up for clerks or dime a dozen Mehran university doctors to head to KSA isn’t a problem - heck it’s in play for decades.

But the result is that with them top trained professionals including faculty published and otherwise leave as well who in turn reduce the quality of who is being produced in country.

That is literally from the sources I just put together

 

[Sam6536]

But that's the thing, India did not actually do any containing

Most of its military posture is to Pakistan , disproportionately

For a couple of years there were a couple of exercises carried out in Indian shores and logistics agreements where American warships could make port calls in India, that is enough posturing I think.

What do you count as "containing" China? A hot war? America mostly wanted India to continue it's antagonistic relationship with China. A situation where the border issue could flare up at anytime.

Even now there are a lot of things taking place behind closed curtains. We hear what they want us to hear. This whole thing can be turned upside down tommorow, geopolitics is fickle that way.

You will want to play this down but it will simply look comical for India to pretend it's taking on China but posture towards Pakistan for much longer.

Given the current detente I wonder how long it'll hold. India and China still have significant assets posted at our borders.

India-Pakistan issue is a deeper one. It's proxy warfare. Now how you respond to it is another question. It's a political and moral quagmire.

And then showing quite determined loyalty to Russia, well that puts you more in neutral or enemy Territory

USSR was like the only geopolitical "ally" of India. They gave us significant military and economic help. USSR was to India what China is to Pakistan. Modern Russia is essentially a successor to USSR, not as strong but it continues the same relationship. It's obvious the current and past crop of leaders will see Russia in a positive light.

Non-aligned to everyone, potential enemy to everyone as well

There has been a lot of debate on this. What exactly is non aligned movement? All the original members are either too weak now or are kowtowing to their powerful neighbours.

I believe India is among the only nations to have a working relationship with everyone. Our national policy stresses a lot on strategic ambiguity and keeping a functional relationship with everyone. This has slightly changed under BJP, who wants more strategic certainty over ambiguity but it's still a WIP. Nothing is concrete.

This includes polar opposites such as Russia-EU, Israel-Iran, US- China etc. Did it provide dividends to India? Yes. Did it earn us the world's ire? Yes. Will India do all the things it did all over again? Yes.

This is something which has seen discussed a lot and opinion varies.

 

[Oscar]

You didn't explain to me the US "clearance system" that ensures no one leaves a sensitive project? Give me details on this "clearance system". I am waiting........ you throw terms without knowing the background so this needs to be discussed. C'mon, quickly, write details. It should be easy as you "seem to know it all" Google and ChatGPT won't help you here. This only comes with practical experience.

Also, I don't get desperate. I debate on facts. Sadly, we don't have Pakistanis that high up and it's a fact. There is like a few you can count after meeting. So let me find one senior person here and he will explain what I did and you, with your little gang is denying because you guys haven't been at that level.

If you don't think I have credentials, than you should be happy that I am asking a THIRD party to come in and explain to all of us right? Why you flippin'?

It’s called a security clearance
Here is the process - https://jobs.boeing.com/security-clearance-levels-aerospace-defense-job
Please explain how it is easy to replace in terms of both professionals meeting the criteria and the JD.
No need to fluff your feathers or project your own insecurities.

And Im waiting for your other folks to save your so called “C-suite” arse

 

[RajaBaja]

Neem hakeem category. Now apparently is alluding to C-suite considerations which when applied here would be even more damning to him.

After all, google just hired talent and is paying them $600k a year to just “sit” and wait until a project comes in fear of losing them.

Maybe I should post that news but the he would dismiss it as well, project onto others about being attacked after taking that approach himself and then make up another story.

Bro - we'll cover all else later. You have work to do. Show me TRUE RESEARCH and I outlined the criteria for you as to how a research is conducted. Show me a few credentialed REAL research papers with proper details.

Also, please explain the US "Clearance System" that is in place to avoid people leaving sensitive projects. I am DYING to hear what bullsh8 is thrown. I am sorry but these are the dumbest posts of the year 2025. But I am still waiting for factual details please.

 

[r3alist]

For a couple of years there were a couple of exercises carried out in Indian shores and logistics agreements where American warships could make port calls in India, that is enough posturing I think.

What do you count as "containing" China? A hot war? America mostly wanted India to continue it's antagonistic relationship with China. A situation where the border issue could flare up at anytime.

Even now there are a lot of things taking place behind closed curtains. We hear what they want us to hear. This whole thing can be turned upside down tommorow, geopolitics is fickle that way.

Given the current detente I wonder how long it'll hold. India and China still have significant assets posted at our borders.

India-Pakistan issue is a deeper one. It's proxy warfare. Now how you respond to it is another question. It's a political and moral quagmire.

USSR was like the only geopolitical "ally" of India. They gave use significant military and economic help. USSR was to India what China is to Pakistan. Modern Russia is essentially a successor to USSR, not as strong but it continues the same relationship. It's obvious the current and past crop of leaders will see Russia in a positive light.

There has been a lot of debate on this. What exactly is non aligned movement? All the original members are either too weak now or are kowtowing to their powerful neighbours.

I believe India is among the only nations to have a working relationship with everyone. Our national policy stresses a lot on strategic ambiguity and keeping a functional relationship with everyone.

This includes polar opposites such as Russia-EU, Israel-Iran, US- China etc. Did it provide dividends to India? Yes. Did it earn us the world's ire? Yes.

This is something which has seen discussed a lot and opinion varies.

Containing would mean having a substantive or proportional enough attack stance that actually worries the Chinese a bit


Your air force is a mess, it's not going to get much better in the next 10 years also.

India is plodding along with its fourth gen, China has a massive fleet of indigenous fifth gen

So ground realities speak for itself, and then the national psyche is still obsessed with Pakistan, making it even more unlikely to actually mobilise against China


The brief for India was, China had to take you seriously enough such that they might think you would have a bit of a conflict.


Outside of that, the allegiance ,alignments or non-alignments are suitable for your internal consumption


The world is getting smaller and more rough, you're looking around for friends who you want to be happy to go into a fight with.

 

[Meengla]

Have you ever done real research on anything and written a thesis? Where are the use cases, industries they went to, analyzed economy, analyzed that talent (or brain drain's) overseas activities, success, failures, how they helped others from Pakistan or some industry in Pakistan to grow. Whether they did any of it or not, etc, etc. Prove to me that the "brain drain" term can be APPLIED on Pakistan because it has an impact on something. ALL of the above items I mentioned, are a part of the evaluation criteria to come to a hypothesis that YES, based on ALL these factors RESEARCHED

I have said enough about the 'brain drain' argument above and no point repeating what I had said. I too could throw some numbers out there to counter. But here is my basic understanding:
What's good enough for Bangladesh, India etc is also good enough for Pakistan. All those countries are too crowded with too many people and it is better to 'export' them overseas then to have them idle at home. There is no question in my mind that Indians also see the 'brain drain' but they also know the alternates are even worse and hence you see Indian analysts in angst about the H1Bs and the potential loss of the 9 million workers from the Middle East. I see the export of the skilled labor as 'crutches' until the home environment is improved. It is not like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh are like some South Korea with hugely deflating populations!!
But unfortunately, this forum has turned extremely divided where people latch onto the words based on political divides in Pakistan. It would off topic to address the Pakistani politics here but I believe the Pakistani members are firmly divided, whether they admit that or not. I, for one, have no hesitation in rooting for which side of the side and by now I everyone should know that.

 

[Vkdindian1]

I think you have understood nothing about the region in the last two years.

I am looking at things in past few decades that have shaped these two years. Any expectations of a sudden change are unlikely. Not impossible though.

I do not see huge investment within India going forward.

The investment landscape may fluctuate. It has never been a straight line for any economy. But, no country including US can ignore India. Short term is one thing. But decades of work isn’t likely to vanish so fast.
I hope we will talk about it on the same forum.

 

[mythbuster]

@RajaBaja

Raja Babu, Unfortunately I don't meet your requirement. Not yet in the C-suite and unlikely to be one.

Regards

Maju , can you throw some light on the pull of GWL for some posters entertainment ?

 

[Watandar]

Damned. These Indians absolutely did an Italian job. The heist of the century. How the Americans fell for it is beyond comprehension. Zero China containment in the end. On the contrary, India has today moved more towards Russia and China.

Consider that the Americans fell for this AFTER China had followed a similar approach , making promises to the West about democracy and human rights so as to get the tech and jobs. Then keep making further promises without fulfilling. By the time West realized it had been had, China had emerged as a new power.

You see it's not just about starting a scam but keeping it going that's tough.

 

[JamD]

It’s called a security clearance
Here is the process - https://jobs.boeing.com/security-clearance-levels-aerospace-defense-job
Please explain how it is easy to replace in terms of both professionals meeting the criteria and the JD.
No need to fluff your feathers or project your own insecurities.

And Im waiting for your other folks to save your so called “C-suite” arse

Advice for you (mairi jurrat) - use ignore button lol.

 

[Meengla]

My assessment is that, this tribal way of thinking has changed with most of the Muslim world. This change has been rapid in the last decade or so.
Thats how the OIC has stopped supporting Pakistan on Kashmir issue, it’s most emotive issue.
This change has primarily happened due to trade becoming the driving factor and not the religion. All these nations have realised that, they have to prepare for post oil/gas economies.
That’s why they have committed huge investments in Indian economy to get toe hold into that future.

I think you have understood nothing about the region in the last two years.

I do not see huge investment within India going forward.

Not to 'cop out', but you BOTH are right.