TF-X / KAAN / Hürjet Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircrafts News & Discussions

[MMM-E]

I hope scientists in Turkey are watching these developments. Because 185-200 KM will not give a range disadvantage to Turkish weapons. Even Meteor's next version will correct it's range gap with the US and Chinese missiles.

Stealth Platforms like KAAN , KIZILELMA and ANKA-4 will give an advantage to Turkiye for BVR combat

I prefer KAAN Fighter Jet with 100+ km GOKDOGAN air to air missile instead of F-15 , F-16V , RAFALE , J-10C armed with 200-300 km air to air missiles

for example
KAAN will detect the RAFALE from 175 km away while the RAFALE will detect KAAN from 35-40 km away

Not air-to-air missiles, but stealth platform will be the key to victory
Turkish scientists focused on reducing radar signature of the KAAN to match with the 5th gen Fighter Jets

and 5th gen Fighter Jets will detect and engage each other below 50 km


Network centric warfare
Ground based AESA Radars like Turkish ALP-300G to detect the F-35 from 120+ km away and to guide 185+ km GOKBORA ramjet powered air to air missiles which will be fired from KAAN Fighter Jet to hit the F-35

 

[JamD]

Interesting - I thought with the bulk head changes, they would make it more sleek like the original TFX models looked it, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

Looking forward to seeing this puppy fly soon!

That tfx model seen as mockup was just a conceptual design not to be taken seriously. The actual TFX looks like P0. P1 should have some visible changes that I'm looking forward to - nothing major but not insignificant - ailerons.

 

[RajaBaja]

Stealth Platforms like KAAN , KIZILELMA and ANKA-4 will give an advantage to Turkiye for BVR combat

I prefer KAAN Fighter Jet with 100+ km GOKDOGAN air to air missile instead of F-15 , F-16V , RAFALE , J-10C armed with 200-300 km air to air missiles

for example
KAAN will detect the RAFALE from 175 km away while the RAFALE will detect KAAN from 35-40 km away

Not air-to-air missiles, but stealth platform will be the key to victory
Turkish scientists focused on reducing radar signature of the KAAN to match with the 5th gen Fighter Jets

and 5th gen Fighter Jets will detect and engage each other below 50 km


Network centric warfare
Ground based AESA Radars like Turkish ALP-300G to detect the F-35 from 120+ km away and to guide 185+ km GOKBORA ramjet powered air to air missiles which will be fired from KAAN Fighter Jet to hit the F-35

1) You'll need to make the Gokhan and Gokbora radars with higher range. That was my point. Turkiye or even America, won't field a 100% 5th gen stealth airforce. Majority of the wars will still be fought with 4.5th gen until 2050. So you don't want your jets to be outranged by say a 100 KM. The new standard is PL-15, AMRAAM-E, AIM-260 and Meteor's next tranche. All at or above 250 KM.

2) You are listing radars for detection of stealth platforms, now the 5th gen platforms come with super sensors both active and passive that can detect even stealth objects from 100's of kilometers away. For example, the F-35 can detect a missile launch from nearly 800+ KM!

So both Gokhan and Gokbora need to have range with the current range standards. That was my point. I like Turkiye's progress.

 

[RajaBaja]

Both RBE-2(rafale)，APG-77(F-22) and APG-81(F-35 block1~block3) are GaAs aesa radar, new APG-85 on F-35 block4 is GaN radar but it's delay to 2031.So the domestically produced GaN radar used by KAAN is technically leading among the above three on paper.

Sorry, but absolutely not the case!

1) US doesn't use GaS in 5th gen platform. It was tested and because it was 1st gen and the processing didn't have much expansion capacity, it was rendered useless for 5th gen stealth platform. The F-35 can detect a missile launch from 800 KM away! How? Welcome to Gallium Nitride.

2) Both F-35 and F-22 use GaN. Not just in radars, in other sensors too that give them extremely long ranges over GaS technology. That's why GaN was adapted.

3) Turkiye adapted GaN technology for it's Radars, set as it's baseline borrowed from F-35 because Turkiye was a partner in that program and knew it's tech baseline.

4) AN/APG-81 is GaN based for F-35. F-22 is also on GaN sensor based.

5) GaN used in SPY planes, the E-7's technology uses limited GaN while P-8's are totally GaN based sensors. That's how they cover nearly 600 KM of the ocean surface and enemy's airspace. Interesting thing is, GaN is also used in the Radio communication detection devices in P-8 in addition to it's Radar and Magnetic Anomaly detectors.

6) B-21 Raider has next generation technologies built on 100% GaN.

 

[Afif]

Sorry, but absolutely not the case!

1) US doesn't use GaS in 5th gen platform. It was tested and because it was 1st gen and the processing didn't have much expansion capacity, it was rendered useless for 5th gen stealth platform. The F-35 can detect a missile launch from 800 KM away! How? Welcome to Gallium Nitride.

2) Both F-35 and F-22 use GaN.

No, it doesn't. Why are you keep pushing this false narrative? Specially without providing any evidence.

And F35 detecting BM launch from 800km away has nothing to do with its radar.

3) Turkiye adapted GaN technology for it's Radars, set as it's baseline borrowed from F-35 because Turkiye was a partner in that program and knew it's tech baseline.

What a cr*p.

 

[MMM-E]

1) You'll need to make the Gokhan and Gokbora radars with higher range. That was my point. Turkiye or even America, won't field a 100% 5th gen stealth airforce. Majority of the wars will still be fought with 4.5th gen until 2050. So you don't want your jets to be outranged by say a 100 KM. The new standard is PL-15, AMRAAM-E, AIM-260 and Meteor's next tranche. All at or above 250 KM.

until 2050 ?

Turkiye is not France which will use only RAFALE until 2045
Turkiye is not Greece which will have only 20 F-35A stealth Fighter

Turkiye focused on 3 stealth platforms ( KAAN , KIZILELMA , ANKA-3/4 ) to produce them more than 200 units in 2030s

even unmanned stealth Fighter Jets will able to hunt 4,5 gen Fighters such as F-15EX , F-16V , RAFALE , J-10C

and Thanks to network centric - cooperative engagement capabilities via data link and advanced ( airborne-land-naval based ) AESA Radars such as E-7T AEWC , ALP-300G , CAFRAD to detect the 4,5 gen Fighters from 350 km away to keep Turkish F-16s away from the line of conflict and to send stealth platforms to the area to hunt the 4,5 gen Fighters


---------------------------

That doesnt matter , missile range is 200 or 300 km , while the RAFALE or F-16V can not detect Turkish F-16s from 150+ km away

for example : RAFALE's RBE2 AA AESA Radar detect F-16 ( RCS of 1 m2 ) from 120 km away


and Turkiye has 240-380 km S400 Air Defense Systems to keep enemy AWACS out of Turkish airspace


so , Turkish modernized F-16s will be armed with 185+ km GOKBORA and 200+ km GOKHAN ramjet powered air to air missiles easly to match with F-15EX , F-16V , RAFALE , J-10C , etc in BVR combat

 

[MMM-E]

2) You are listing radars for detection of stealth platforms, now the 5th gen platforms come with super sensors both active and passive that can detect even stealth objects from 100's of kilometers away. For example, the F-35 can detect a missile launch from nearly 800+ KM!

F-35 used DAS sensor technology to detect Ballistic Missiles from 800+ km away

but KAAN or ANKA-3 are not a Ballistic Missile



KAAN vs F-35

RCS
KAAN : 0.003 m2
F-35 : 0,0015 m2

head to head engagement ( approximately )
KAAN : 34 km
F-35 : 37 km

KAAN is coming with MURAD-600 AESA Radar to have almost same head to head engagement capability with the F-35


F-35 or KAAN can use other sensors to detect stealth Platforms from 50-100 km away

This isn't particularly dependent on the F-22, F-35 , KAAN or F-16V ... It depends on the quality of the IRST sensor


KAAN's MURAD-600 AESA Radar to detect the F-35 from 34 km away while the IRST can detect the F-35 from 50-100 km away

Thanks to Aselsan KARAT IRST

-- Superior target detection range with LWIR detector
-- Detecting 5th generation Fighter Jets
-- Detection of up to 100 targets / Tracking of up to 3 targets

The F-35 is not 100% invisible if you are close enough

 

[MMM-E]

3) Turkiye adapted GaN technology for it's Radars, set as it's baseline borrowed from F-35 because Turkiye was a partner in that program and knew it's tech baseline.

Turkiye has no any F-35 or American AESA Radar

Turkiye itself developed GaN technology AESA Radars such as MURAD-100 also MURAD-600 under development for the KAAN

also ALP 110G is a multifunction AESA Air Surveillance Radar
ALP-310G GaN based AESA Radar for SIPER Air Defense System
CENK-400N GaN based AESA Radar for ISTIF class FRIGATE
CAFRAD GaN based AESA Radar for TF-2000 class Destroyer

 

[RajaBaja]

F-35 used DAS sensor technology to detect Ballistic Missiles from 800+ km away

but KAAN or ANKA-3 are not a Ballistic Missile

Well, read my post's point number 2 again, it covers it. GaN isn't just a "radar" tech. It's chipsets processes information, absorb heat, send faster signals and has like 25 other use cases. DAS is also one of them. Advance range finders, Hypersonic missiles sensors and much more.

I speak from knowing the engineering of this technology and it's capability. So it will be hard for others to understand. But my post sums it up for you.

Turkiye has no any F-35 or American AESA Radar

Turkiye itself developed GaN technology AESA Radars such as MURAD-100 also MURAD-600 under development for the KAAN

also ALP 110G is a multifunction AESA Air Surveillance Radar
ALP-310G GaN based AESA Radar for SIPER Air Defense System
CENK-400N GaN based AESA Radar for ISTIF class FRIGATE
CAFRAD GaN based AESA Radar for TF-2000 class Destroyer

You are again missing the entire point. Turkiye was a partner in F-35. Meaning it's engineers had access to F-35 design materials as well as prior manufacturing experience of the F-16's since the 1980's. So it decided to work on the latest tech the Americans or top nations are working on, that's where GaN comes in over French tech of prior generation based on GaAS.

 

[MMM-E]

You are again missing the entire point. Turkiye was a partner in F-35. Meaning it's engineers had access to F-35 design materials as well as prior manufacturing experience of the F-16's since the 1980's. So it decided to work on the latest tech the Americans or top nations are working on, that's where GaN comes in over French tech of prior generation based on GaAS.

Turkiye produced F-16s under license in Turkiye including F-110 engines
but F-35 is another story ... Turkiye just produced some parts of the F-35 such as center fuselage

What does it have to do with the F-35 project?
Turkiye never had a F-35 and GaN based AESA Radar

Turkiye focused on the latest technologies GaN based AESA Radars
and Turkiye itself developed this technology for the latest technoloyg Turkish Weapons KAAN 5th gen Fighter , SIPER Air Defense System , ISTIF class Frigate and TF-2000 class Destroyer

Well, read my post's point number 2 again, it covers it. GaN isn't just a "radar" tech. It's chipsets processes information, absorb heat, send faster signals and has like 25 other use cases. DAS is also one of them. Advance range finders, Hypersonic missiles sensors and much more.

I speak from knowing the engineering of this technology and it's capability. So it will be hard for others to understand. But my post sums it up for you.

You are so babbling here

You said that

now the 5th gen platforms come with super sensors both active and passive that can detect even stealth objects from 100's of kilometers away. For example, the F-35 can detect a missile launch from nearly 800+ KM!

So both Gokhan and Gokbora need to have range with the current range standards. That was my point. I like Turkiye's progress.

KAAN is not a Ballistic Missile
The F-35 AESA Radar or DAS can not detect the KAAN from 100+ km away
( 37-100 km )

so . 185 km GOKBORA air to air Missile will be enough to match with other 5th gen Fighters in BVR combat


KAAN AESA Radar and IRST-EOTS Systems to detect the F-35 from 34-100 km away ( maximum )

The upcoming BVR battles will be at a maximum distance of 100 km for the 5th gen Fighter Jets

 

[RajaBaja]

Turkiye produced F-16s under license in Turkiye including F-110 engines
but F-35 is another story ... Turkiye just produced some parts of the F-35 such as center fuselage

What does it have to do with the F-35 project?
Turkiye never had a F-35 and GaN based AESA Radar

Turkiye focused on the latest technologies GaN based AESA Radars
and Turkiye itself developed this technology for the latest technoloyg Turkish Weapons KAAN 5th gen Fighter , SIPER Air Defense System , ISTIF class Frigate and TF-2000 class Destroyer




You are so babbling here

You said that


KAAN is not a Ballistic Missile
The F-35 AESA Radar or DAS can not detect the KAAN from 100+ km away
( 37-100 km )

so . 185 km GOKBORA air to air Missile will be enough to match with other 5th gen Fighters in BVR combat


KAAN AESA Radar and IRST-EOTS Systems to detect the F-35 from 34-100 km away ( maximum )

The upcoming BVR battles will be at a maximum distance of 100 km for the 5th gen Fighter Jets

Ok, look. I've tried to discuss with you nicely. But I don't think you are paying attention to what's said in my posts. Read my posts 5/6 times and if you still don't understand the message, don't worry about continuing this discussion.

 

[MMM-E]

Ok, look. I've tried to discuss with you nicely. But I don't think you are paying attention to what's said in my posts. Read my posts 5/6 times and if you still don't understand the message, don't worry about continuing this discussion.

I gave detailed info about it ... read my post again 5/6 times

1 -- The F-35 AESA Radar and DAS can not detect the KAAN from 100+ km away
Similarly, KAAN also can not detect the F-35 from 100+ km away

so , 185 km GOKBORA air to air Missile will be enough to match with other 5th gen Fighters in BVR combat



2 -- 4,5th gen Fighters have no any chance against the KAAN in BVR combat

also KIZILELMA and ANKA-3/4 unmanned stealth Fighter Jets will give advantage to TURAF against 4,5 gen Fighter Jets in BVR combat


3 -- F-16V or RAFALE can not detect Turkish F-16s from 120+ km away
and enemy AWACS will be blocked by 240-380 km S400 Missiles

so , enemy Fighter Jets can not hit Turkish F-16s from 250-300 km away

185-200 km GOKBORA and GOKHAN air to air Missiles will be enough to match with both 4,5 and 5th gen Fighter Jets in BVR combat

 

[Flotilla]

Ejército del Aire would buy 45 Hürjet in a spanish configuration.

Semi-official news website published yesterday that Spanish Ejército del Aire would buy 45 Hürjets. It is said that spanish companies would help to develop a spanish configuration (probably minor changes and avionics to simulate radars modes and data links with ground radars and communications).

That means that Spain would eventually buy 15 more than expected, raising from initial interest of 30 to 45.

El Gobierno eleva a 45 el número de aviones Hürjet que adquirirá para formar a los pilotos de caza españoles

Las principales empresas potencialmente vinculadas al programa son, además de Airbus España, Aciturri, Aernnova, Aertec, Airtificial, Amper, Centum, CESA, CLUE, GMV, Grabysur, Indra, Grupo O ...

www.infodefensa.com

Congratulations to TAI, turkish people and hope everything goes well.
In my personal oppinion (maybe many spaniards disagree with me) It is exciting to help and participate in companies non aligned with US/israeli companies.

 

[Ali_Baba]

That tfx model seen as mockup was just a conceptual design not to be taken seriously. The actual TFX looks like P0. P1 should have some visible changes that I'm looking forward to - nothing major but not insignificant - ailerons.

I do wonder if Türkiye has taken the opportunity to redesign the internals of the jet with this version, such that it has greater compatibility with a wider source of engines(e.g. Chinese ? ). Perfect time to do it now, to derisk the project as much as possible from further american sanctions.

 

[hyperman]

I do wonder if Türkiye has taken the opportunity to redesign the internals of the jet with this version, such that it has greater compatibility with a wider source of engines(e.g. Chinese ? ). Perfect time to do it now, to derisk the project as much as possible from further american sanctions.

Not that I know of.

From What I remember back in 2020, the two engines under consideration were the EJ200 and the F404, and Turkey went with GE, as that engine had been more widely used especially in single engine configurations. But I think the EJ200 should not be all that difficult to integrate, may need some modifications but nothing too significant, the aircraft was being deigned originally where that engine was under consideration.

https://archive.ph/20200519214437/https://www.c4defence.com/Arsiv/hurjetin-motorunda-rekabet-devam-ediyor/9146/1