AJK govt bans Joint Awami Action Committee, notification issued

To further the point, the same political and social ecosystem that produced support for PTI also produced TLP, the Swat Taliban, sectarianism, tribal behavior, and the establishment’s own hard state elitism that claims to oppose all of it with a 1-dimensional, "smash it all" first mindset.

It is a self perpetuating cycle. Pakistanis are not empty vessels waiting for the right leader, they are shaped by real grievances, illiteracy, clientelism, religious manipulation, tribal identity, and decades of political engineering by the same elite that keeps benefiting from the cycle.

So this is not about dismissing millions of votes or that PTI support was fake or that everyone who backed it was irrational. It is about recognizing that the conditions that made PTI popular are the same ones that keep producing extremism, populism, and authoritarian reflexes. That is why the state’s response to PTI and to unrest in AJK is the elite trying to contain a crisis it helped create.

If you cannot recognize it - then here are easy replies without needing to copy paste the party line:
  • "You just hate IK."
  • "You are a PDM bot."
  • "Bootlicker."
  • "No one else can move the masses like him."
  • "At least he is better than the looters."
  • "So what, should we just accept corruption then?"
  • "You are sounding exactly like the establishment."
  • "Every criticism of PTI is paid propaganda."
 
Oscar said:
I merely put your own words to highlight how contradictory they were and now you are dismissing it all as "strawman" ...fine.

You are SORELY MISTAKEN - and MISCONSTRUING my post to assume that I say support for IK is driven by millions of people being ignorant and tribal or manipulated.

Let's be clear: Imran Khan and the PTI gained massive popularity for very genuine reasons. People ARE exhausted by decades of dynastic politics, systemic corruption, and economic mismanagement from the PML-N and PPP. The desire for accountability, a third political option, and a break from the status quo were entirely valid reasons for his rise.

However, acknowledging that genuine appeal does not erase the fact that PTI also heavily relied on the exact same repackaged populist rhetoric that has historically worked on the masses in Pakistan.

My critique of "illiteracy, ignorance, and outdated tribalism" was a broader diagnosis of the systemic flaws in our political culture that have historically enabled flawed leadership whether it was under Zia, Musharraf, or anyone else. In that specific paragraph I am highlighting the overarching environment that allows victimhood narratives to thrive, not a targeted insult at Imran Khan’s specific voter base.

Why do you specifically take it at IK?(and where I said "double jeopardy of irony" end up as the one creating the strawman argument).

Or are you dismissive that Pakistani society even from the early 50s has historically been shaped by pseudo-religious manipulation and tribalism? Or just stating that the objectives resolution or state surrender to Anti-Qadiyani riots isnt proof of that but my engaging in "elitism"?



If we cannot honestly critique the social conditions that perpetuate our political cycles without crying "elitism," we are simply choosing to remain blind to the root of the problem.
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Fair enough...... But the problem is that your explanation is so broad it can explain literally everything and therefore explains very little....

Tribalism, religious manipulation, weak institutions, and personality cults existed under Ayub, Bhutto, Zia, Benazir, Nawaz, Musharraf, and Khan.... If those factors explain everything, then they explain nothing....

The more interesting question is why millions of people who were perfectly aware of those societal flaws still rallied behind Khan and continue to support him today...... For that, "Pakistani society is broken" is an incomplete answer.... Recent events matter too... you have to engage with recent events, not just longstanding flaws in Pakistani society..
 
M. Sarmad said:
Fair enough...... But the problem is that your explanation is so broad it can explain literally everything and therefore explains very little....

Tribalism, religious manipulation, weak institutions, and personality cults existed under Ayub, Bhutto, Zia, Benazir, Nawaz, Musharraf, and Khan.... If those factors explain everything, then they explain nothing....

The more interesting question is why millions of people who were perfectly aware of those societal flaws still rallied behind Khan and continue to support him today...... For that, "Pakistani society is broken" is an incomplete answer.... Recent events matter too... you have to engage with recent events, not just longstanding flaws in Pakistani society..
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Already acknowledged the aspects in the 2nd paragraph so why restate them?
You cannot isolate recent events and then dismiss a root cause saying it does not explain everything.

The same social habits that produced support for Ayub, Bhutto, and later PTI are part of the same pattern, not separate ones. Even Jinnah had to work within that reality and, in practice, accept mass politics as it evolved.

Bhutto also had real educated and middle class support, not just rural crowds. Ayub too had an early reformist image and attracted educated backing before the fallout set in. Then with PTI, the middle class mobilized strongly as well, but Pakistan’s historically thin middle class, weak civic culture, and the tendency of many people to stop at symbolic effort meant that support was always vulnerable to disappointment.

Once IK's compromises became visible, the same crowd that elevated him also helped cool the wave.

If anything, it was the impending bogey of return of the status quo under PDM and Khan's own rhetoric with victimhood similar to how Bhutto and everyone else before him "Mujhe kyun nikala" put out at different levels of resonance - actually boosted his popularity at the polls. Then what happened after May's events? Where are the jiyalas? PPPP can still gather more even with suppression than PTI can.

I mean if he could - where are they? its been 4 years the man is in jail and no masses are storming Adiala or parliament nor has KPK descended into full civil war yet for just IK. Because the state(in its part of the cycle and elitist tilt) did what it does suppression, negotiations, partial acceptance, policing, communication controls, and selective concessions.

Where are these "fantastical" current events that have dismissed the long standing root causes?

Instead, there are more visible and AJK is a prime example - long running structure of elite capture, weak accountability, and a governance setup that many residents see as remote, over administered, and unresponsive.

PTI can provide that movement a voice but CANNOT change the system because they are borne of it and the state is running a very similar playbook BECAUSE that is all it knows how to do.

Nothing new in that nor some "recent" events that would suggest that Pakistan's Biryani is now different because now the masala is being made in factories and sold in packets - its still Biryani and Pakistanis are ok with it.
 
Oscar said:
Already acknowledged the aspects in the 2nd paragraph so why restate them?
You cannot isolate recent events and then dismiss a root cause saying it does not explain everything.

The same social habits that produced support for Ayub, Bhutto, and later PTI are part of the same pattern, not separate ones. Even Jinnah had to work within that reality and, in practice, accept mass politics as it evolved.

Bhutto also had real educated and middle class support, not just rural crowds. Ayub too had an early reformist image and attracted educated backing before the fallout set in. Then with PTI, the middle class mobilized strongly as well, but Pakistan’s historically thin middle class, weak civic culture, and the tendency of many people to stop at symbolic effort meant that support was always vulnerable to disappointment.

Once IK's compromises became visible, the same crowd that elevated him also helped cool the wave.

If anything, it was the impending bogey of return of the status quo under PDM and Khan's own rhetoric with victimhood similar to how Bhutto and everyone else before him "Mujhe kyun nikala" put out at different levels of resonance - actually boosted his popularity at the polls. Then what happened after May's events? Where are the jiyalas? PPPP can still gather more even with suppression than PTI can.

I mean if he could - where are they? its been 4 years the man is in jail and no masses are storming Adiala or parliament nor has KPK descended into full civil war yet for just IK. Because the state(in its part of the cycle and elitist tilt) did what it does suppression, negotiations, partial acceptance, policing, communication controls, and selective concessions.

Where are these "fantastical" current events that have dismissed the long standing root causes?

Instead, there are more visible and AJK is a prime example - long running structure of elite capture, weak accountability, and a governance setup that many residents see as remote, over administered, and unresponsive.

PTI can provide that movement a voice but CANNOT change the system because they are borne of it and the state is running a very similar playbook BECAUSE that is all it knows how to do.

Nothing new in that nor some "recent" events that would suggest that Pakistan's Biryani is now different because now the masala is being made in factories and sold in packets - its still Biryani and Pakistanis are ok with it.
Click to expand...

The problem isn't that you are identifying root causes.... The problem is that you have elevated them into a universal explanation for everything....

By your logic, Ayub, Bhutto, Zia, Nawaz, Musharraf, Khan, support for them, opposition to them, protests against them, and apathy towards them are all manifestations of the same underlying social pathology.... That's not analysis... that's a catch-all narrative...

You keep asking where the masses are.... The masses were at the ballot box... They don't need to storm Adiala to express political support....They aren't militants, they are ordinary citizens... And if popular support is measured by willingness to launch an insurrection against a million strong armed to teeth ruthless Army, then virtually every political leader in Pakistan's history lacked public support....

And more importantly, you are treating structural causes and recent events as if they are mutually exclusive.... They aren't..... Pakistan's flaws existed before 2022.... What changed after 2022 was public perception. Your framework struggles to explain why millions of people who happily tolerated the system for decades suddenly stopped trusting it.... The question isn't whether Pakistan has deep, rooted structural problems.... Of course it does... The question is why, after 2022, millions of people who previously accepted the system began questioning it. Simply replying "same old biryani" sidesteps the very phenomenon you are trying to explain....

At some point, "it's the same old cycle" becomes less of an explanation and more of a way to avoid confronting what actually changed....
 
You guys may like it
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gamaji said:
Just shamelessly slandering. No substance as usual. The clan cannot tell us of a single good they have done to Pakistan. I mean what you can expect from those beghairat jerks who suck Hindutva Modi and spread Indian lies and narrative. I hope Bajwa and Pasha kind of fools must be feeling ashamed and fallen ti disgrace in their own eyes for what they have done to Pakistan.

The people of Pakistan have rejected these liars time and again despite youthias sucking American congressmen/senators and spreading lies on social media. Youthias had high hopes to get their haqeeqi azadi from Trump before he became the president. Trump threw them in a dust bin. Let them seeks Haqeeqi Azadi' now from America by sucking Americans.
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truth doesnt care about your alternative take on reality... this something the zionist and RSS goons have found out... you are on the same level.. you will find out too
 
M. Sarmad said:
The problem isn't that you are identifying root causes.... The problem is that you have elevated them into a universal explanation for everything....

By your logic, Ayub, Bhutto, Zia, Nawaz, Musharraf, Khan, support for them, opposition to them, protests against them, and apathy towards them are all manifestations of the same underlying social pathology.... That's not analysis... that's a catch-all narrative...

You keep asking where the masses are.... The masses were at the ballot box... They don't need to storm Adiala to express political support....They aren't militants, they are ordinary citizens... And if popular support is measured by willingness to launch an insurrection against a million strong armed to teeth ruthless Army, then virtually every political leader in Pakistan's history lacked public support....

And more importantly, you are treating structural causes and recent events as if they are mutually exclusive.... They aren't..... Pakistan's flaws existed before 2022.... What changed after 2022 was public perception. Your framework struggles to explain why millions of people who happily tolerated the system for decades suddenly stopped trusting it.... The question isn't whether Pakistan has deep, rooted structural problems.... Of course it does... The question is why, after 2022, millions of people who previously accepted the system began questioning it. Simply replying "same old biryani" sidesteps the very phenomenon you are trying to explain....

At some point, "it's the same old cycle" becomes less of an explanation and more of a way to avoid confronting what actually changed....
Click to expand...

I dont think these thinker bells will understand what you just wrote.
 
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hussain0216 said:
Colonial this, colonial that

The Messiah Imran will save all, with no plans, idiots as PTI members

All it will do is bring more chaos to a system that doesn't work


PTI at the moment is a terrible terrible party that can't be trusted at all to safeguard Pakistan interests
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again... you didnt answer the basic question

after 70+ years of assshole style rule what did you achieve?... is their any metric a Pakistani can be proud of? ie education , health , security?...

name one achievement.
 
mythbuster said:
First you said lollipop will cost half my salary and now you are telling me you thought I am a 5 years old ....well , no surprise when the brain cells go haywire...
You have a born right to contradict yourself.
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you are right.. no body in their right mind would hire you.
 
Oscar said:
I can call them duffers but you cannot because you yourself are one.
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so lets go by your intellectually challanged logic...

because I am intelligent hence I cannot you call you intelligent?..

got it..

I wont call you intelligent.
 
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I think the faujeeet and current form 47 gov apologist live in their own reality... kind of like the champion who made this movie

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hopeless situation...

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in the end as Clinton said "it is the economy stupid"...

so yes my "stupid" defenders of the illegal regime as usual you have failed what matter the mosts... keep running around Khan's porn movies,... ( lol )... his women ( some thing you guy can never get ) etc


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