Al - Haider VT-4 MBT - The Premier PA Ground Asset [Developments]

[Mohid Afzal]

Perhaps China should give Transfer of Technology for these VT-4s.

wasn't ToT part of the contract? I remember seeing that HIT will recieve 90% production of parts in several tweets shared by members, both on new and old PDF. Now, I could be wrong so it's best to ask Farooqbhai or Panzerkhiel as they know better.

 

[FuturePAF]

Are these the active defenses used on the Haider?

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[Lion]

Are these the active defenses used on the Haider?

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No, they are available but have to be bought separately, PA has not bought them yet, they’re very expensive.

 

[Lion]

Perhaps China should give Transfer of Technology for these VT-4s.

They already have, they’re being made at HIT.

 

[Rational Philosopher]

They already have, they’re being made at HIT.

Is it a JF-17 type of assembly or full on technology transfer?

 

[Lion]

Protection level for standard and modified VT-4.
and Tanks / APCs for exports listed by GIDS



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This is basically just for marketing, those protection numbers don’t really make much sense and half the parameters are missing. What range, what angle, what kind of steel, what kind of ammo? I can deduce most of these, but the protection figures still won’t make sense.

 

[Lion]

Is it a JF-17 type of assembly or full on technology transfer?

Neither, China gave Pakistan a production license and ToT for most of the tank, however the design manuals and plans were rather…bad. HIT to reverse engineer a lot of things, many other parts were replaced with locally designed ones too.

It started out with HIT only assembling Chinese kits, slowly indigenization has been brought up to 40%. The eventual goal is to indigenize everything economically feasible, so maybe around 70-80% of the tank by parts? This is a much larger % than AK. For reference the newest T90MS India produced locally had 83% indigenous content, including the entire engine, however due to licensing issues some very basic parts like gun barrels and tracks are still made in Russia for those.

It’s highly unlikely we’ll see Pakistan make engines and gearboxes for these, and certain high-end steels and composites might still come from China. All of these can technically be made locally, but it won’t be economically feasible.​

 

[Toxic]

Is it a JF-17 type of assembly or full on technology transfer?

Assembly but also some locally made parts like the barrel.

 

[Toxic]

The ToT from Ukraine doesn’t make sense not because Ukraine wouldn’t give it, if anything I believe we could have gotten it from them at any point since we started AK production up until today. The reason we haven’t gotten the ToT is because HIT has no tooling, machinery or expertise to produce Power plants and engines, nobody in Pakistan does, there is not a single ICE engine made anywhere in Pakistan. Not even for a CD70, let alone a tank. This means that producing the engines locally after buying ToT and all the required training and tooling would give us a per-engine cost that’s nearly the same as an entire Al-Khalid tank, it simply doesn’t make financial sense. That’s also the reason Engines and transmissions weren’t included in the ToT for the Haider and they’re still imported from China. While my personal belief is that HIT should have gone through with it anyways and paid the extra cost if only to get engine R&D started in any firm in Pakistan for the first time in history, I understand the need for saving the money.

Another example of the auto industry fucking us over, car manufacturers never moved beyond assembly here, if we had started building engines for small cars and motorcycles back then it could have progressed to making engines for SUV's and trucks and eventually tank engines.

 

[Mohid Afzal]

Neither, China gave Pakistan a production license and ToT for most of the tank, however the design manuals and plans were rather…bad. HIT to reverse engineer a lot of things, many other parts were replaced with locally designed ones too.

It started out with HIT only assembling Chinese kits, slowly indigenization has been brought up to 40%. The eventual goal is to indigenize everything economically feasible, so maybe around 70-80% of the tank by parts? This is a much larger % than AK. For reference the newest T90MS India produced locally had 83% indigenous content, including the entire engine, however due to licensing issues some very basic parts like gun barrels and tracks are still made in Russia for those.

It’s highly unlikely we’ll see Pakistan make engines and gearboxes for these, and certain high-end steels and composites might still come from China. All of these can technically be made locally, but it won’t be economically feasible.​

A question Sir, wasn't there a simillar case with the Al Khalid tanks as well in which China didn't gave the required blueprints despite the agreement and HIT had the carve new blueprints using something called Forearm? This is what I read on the old forum.
Also, didn't Ukraine offered us co-production of various engines including tank engines as well as offered help in making turbo jet and turbofan engines for jets? This is also I read on the old forum and I would go there to search it again but the search function no longer works and it's a hustle to through each page of the long threads there.

 

[Psyko70]

First units of AK 1 built by HIT n were suppose to be handed over to PA, to one of our formations in the south but PA refused to accept it....due to a faulty major components in AK 1.
HIT initially n then the Chinese manufacturer tried to rectify the fault but it just would not go away.....this went one for about a year.

Then PA signed the deal for vt 4 n within a month the fault just simply disappears. AK 1 becomes fully functional n is accepted by PA.

Ps this is just one example

Respected sir,

I am not questioning your credibility but I also heard something similar that in HIT we break latest tank, take its component and combine with other tanks and call it an upgrade. then later the upgraded tank faces issues. AK1 faced same. But as far as I remember AK1 issue was rectified before Al Haider was inducted or its contract signed.

 

[Psyko70]

Haider is just a localized vt-4 with some tweaks to turret, front hull and tracks, armor, gun, and ammo. Parts HIT quickly produced thanks to things they learned with AK series. Chinese aren't comfortable with license production and rightly so. It's their hot selling product why would they or anyone hand over critical info on that?
However, during AK development, they withheld critical drawings and blueprints of components repeatedly. We had to procure prototyping equipment like Fero Arm for quick prototyping and carve fresh blueprints of components. They play hardball and so do we whenever possible. Vt-4 is Norincos IPR however times we label it as local. It's funny actually.
We do fabricate quality turrets these days though, case in point AZ turret.

AZ Turret as per my understanding can defeat any Indian tank apart from T90MS. Only that AZ is poorly protected being old generation. Its basically like Indian Tank Ex or Israeli sherman upgraded.

 

[Psyko70]

A question Sir, wasn't there a simillar case with the Al Khalid tanks as well in which China didn't gave the required blueprints despite the agreement and HIT had the carve new blueprints using something called Forearm? This is what I read on the old forum.
Also, didn't Ukraine offered us co-production of various engines including tank engines as well as offered help in making turbo jet and turbofan engines for jets? This is also I read on the old forum and I would go there to search it again but the search function no longer works and it's a hustle to through each page of the long threads there.

Its true what you said from old forum I also remember something related.

 

[Lion]

AZ Turret as per my understanding can defeat any Indian tank apart from T90MS. Only that AZ is poorly protected being old generation. Its basically like Indian Tank Ex or Israeli sherman upgraded.

Tank on tank warfare is rare. I’m not sure what you mean by an AZ turret defeating an Indian tank, but the ammunition carried by all 125MM armed tanks in the PA is generally the same, though the Haiders are getting new Ammunition that will later trickle down to the other tanks.

Barring things like range and accuracy, the penetration figures for all of them will be the same as long as they’re firing the same ammo.

The T90S and MS have very good frontal armor protection, the best in the region actually, rivaling the Haider in certain aspects. The one who wins the duel is the one who fires first (generally), so it’s sensors, sights and crew training more than anything else that matters here.

Most MBT losses in a conflict will be down to ATGMs, UCAVs, gunships etc and not tanks shooting at tanks.

 

[Lion]

A question Sir, wasn't there a simillar case with the Al Khalid tanks as well in which China didn't gave the required blueprints despite the agreement and HIT had the carve new blueprints using something called Forearm? This is what I read on the old forum.
Also, didn't Ukraine offered us co-production of various engines including tank engines as well as offered help in making turbo jet and turbofan engines for jets? This is also I read on the old forum and I would go there to search it again but the search function no longer works and it's a hustle to through each page of the long threads there.

It’s not that China didn’t give us the required designs and blueprints, they did, they were just not translated (or translated well), had errors and a lot of missing details. HIT in several cases found it easier to reverse engineer a part and make their own blueprints than try to decipher Chinese ones.

Most of the things they didn’t give blueprints for we didn’t get ToT for in the first place, at least in the case of Haider. For AK it was sort of a different situation, there were several parts on it HIT should have been make to design which they simply didn’t and kept ordering them from China.

And yes, Ukraine offered Engine ToT, we didn’t take it because it wasn’t economically feasible - refer to my previous post about engine ToT on this thread regarding that.