Al - Haider VT-4 MBT - The Premier PA Ground Asset [Developments]

[Lion]

First of all, intellectual property is not like regular property, which, if consumed by somebody else, cannot be consumed by the owner. Calling it "property" achieves the purpose of misleading. Keep that in mind.

Second, the most practice of protecting "intellectual property" serves the purpose of hindering the spread of the use. Check the history of how James Watt's patent on steam engine prevented its wide adoption.

Lastly, all developed countries went through the phase of "stealing" such "intellectual properties", which were jealously guarded by the more developed countries. US, Japan, for example. Once they become developed, they start to promote the protection of "intellectual properties" just like the country from which they stole before. Check the early history of US patent practice, which effectively promoted the theft of British know-hows by protecting the "thieves" in US.

BTW, as a side note, software industry largely saved itself from the wrath of intellectual property by the open source movement. So, no paying while using something invented by someone else isn't necessarily an evil.

This is a classic example of a whatabout-ism. I don’t deny that the US or UK has done this, nor did I say anywhere in my posts that China was the only country to do so, yet you are quick to say “but they did this too” while conveniently leaving out the fact that China did the exact same things (and continues to do so) now that it has the power to enforce its IPs.

It is “rules for thee but not for me” - when China does it, it is not necessarily evil, when the west does it, it is evil. If you think it’s not evil, why does China not lift the license protections for all the technology it makes? Why does China not allow countries like Pakistan to produce Chinese weaponry without expensive licenses? After all, China produced western weaponry without buying any licenses and that was “not necessarily evil” and “acceptable”

Your differentiation between property and IP makes no sense here either, nobody talked about Property, only IPs. China copied western and Russian IPs and you say that is fair for them to do, but China will never let anyone copy it’s IPs.

If there’s one thing that doesn’t change from nation to nation, it’s the propaganda. Chinese or Western or Indian or Pakistani, it is always in the same flavor.

 

[nang2]

This is a classic example of a whatabout-ism. I don’t deny that the US or UK has done this, nor did I say anywhere in my posts that China was the only country to do so, yet you are quick to say “but they did this too” while conveniently leaving out the fact that China did the exact same things (and continues to do so) now that it has the power to enforce its IPs.

It is “rules for thee but not for me” - when China does it, it is not necessarily evil, when the west does it, it is evil. If you think it’s not evil, why does China not lift the license protections for all the technology it makes? Why does China not allow countries like Pakistan to produce Chinese weaponry without expensive licenses? After all, China produced western weaponry without buying any licenses and that was “not necessarily evil” and “acceptable”

Your differentiation between property and IP makes no sense here either, nobody talked about Property, only IPs. China copied western and Russian IPs and you say that is fair for them to do, but China will never let anyone copy it’s IPs.

If there’s one thing that doesn’t change from nation to nation, it’s the propaganda. Chinese or Western or Indian or Pakistani, it is always in the same flavor.

The difference is that people no longer talks about the US or Japanese history of stealing. But whenever China is the subject, this word almost always pops out. This phenomenon will probably only stop once china becomes the target of "intellectual property theft". But this is clearly just a game of trashing the newcomers with very little moral value. That's why when someone from a potential newcomer country holds up the flag of "intellectual property", it becomes a sad scene.

 

[Oscar]

The difference is that people no longer talks about the US or Japanese history of stealing. But whenever China is the subject, this word almost always pops out. This phenomenon will probably only stop once china becomes the target of "intellectual property theft". But this is clearly just a game of trashing the newcomers with very little moral value. That's why when someone from a potential newcomer country holds up the flag of "intellectual property", it becomes a sad scene.

I agree that neither the west nor others have standing on moral values in terms of taking others learnings. But that doesn’t mean the word stolen is not correct.

For e.g the SR-71 was built with titanium that was misleadingly procured from Russia for civilian purposes - the same way China took chipsets from US for civilian purposes and then reverse engineered them for use in their own systems.

It all fair in national interest. But then keep in mind trust also erodes in such practices. China refused to allow Pakistan to integrate other weapons on JF-17 and on multiple aspects tried overcharging on items such as electronic components which it quoted the west a cheaper price on.

You cannot claim “iron brothers” when you openly exploit a relationship. That is not to say the west doesn’t do it as well but then lets agree that no one is pure.

There is a great deal - far greater - that China has stepped up to help Pakistan in but to say it is always a sincere relationship from both sides is a lie. To pretend Pakistan is always sincere is a lie as is to pretend China is always sincere.

Anyone insisting on this is nothing more than a hypocrite peddling propaganda

 

[wanglaokan]

I agree that neither the west nor others have standing on moral values in terms of taking others learnings. But that doesn’t mean the word stolen is not correct.

For e.g the SR-71 was built with titanium that was misleadingly procured from Russia for civilian purposes - the same way China took chipsets from US for civilian purposes and then reverse engineered them for use in their own systems.

It all fair in national interest. But then keep in mind trust also erodes in such practices. China refused to allow Pakistan to integrate other weapons on JF-17 and on multiple aspects tried overcharging on items such as electronic components which it quoted the west a cheaper price on.

You cannot claim “iron brothers” when you openly exploit a relationship. That is not to say the west doesn’t do it as well but then lets agree that no one is pure.

There is a great deal - far greater - that China has stepped up to help Pakistan in but to say it is always a sincere relationship from both sides is a lie. To pretend Pakistan is always sincere is a lie as is to pretend China is always sincere.

Anyone insisting on this is nothing more than a hypocrite peddling propaganda

tell me why F16 is missing in the India pakistan conflict. If China is exploiting Pakistan, then you will have no friends at all. Iron brother doesn't mean we will allow everything from you side even violating our intellectual property and core imterests, it only means we will provide resource and weapon when push comes to shove. you sure can count on China on supporting Pakistan sovereign integrity and against invasion from India, don't forget to pay respect in the mean time.

 

[Oscar]

tell me why F16 is missing in the India pakistan conflict. If China is exploiting Pakistan, then you will have no friends at all. Iron brother doesn't mean we will allow everything from you side even violating our intellectual property and core imterests, it only means we will provide resource and weapon when push comes to shove. you sure can count on China on supporting Pakistan sovereign integrity and against invasion from India, don't forget to pay respect in the mean time.

The F-16 was not missing at all. That is a statement born out of pure jingoism and not looking at Pakistan utilizing the most effective asset. Just as the F-16 was the top spear in 2019 so the J-10C was in 2025.

And let me be clear - there are NO FRIENDS in geopolitics.
China only helps Pakistan out of interest as does Pakistan ally with China out of interest.
Back in the early 50s when the dictator Ayub Khan ruled over Pakistan and allied with the US, he even sent proposals to India to fight the "red menace"(Russia+China) together.
It was not until China's defeat of India in 62 that Ayub changed his mind.

So it is all about interests, China sees a very important geostrategic ally in Pakistan and Pakistan sees its guarantor of security. In that relationship, if Chinese businesses exploit Pakistan (many times in collusion with corrupt Pakistanis) that is plain human nature.

 

[bravo_1]

What happened to these upgrades?? Is that a standard protection for AK-1?? @Lion

 

[Lion]

What happened to these upgrades?? Is that a standard protection for AK-1?? @Lion
View attachment 146541

I assume you’re talking about the FY-IV ERA - There is nothing stopping the PA from mounting it on the AK Series directly, the decision to mount it comes down to weight, the AK series has a rather underpowered engine, replacing FY-II with FY-IV will add at least a couple of tons of weight and reduce the range somewhat. If PA thinks the loss in mobility is an acceptable compromise for enhanced protection, it can always mount the FY-IV.

I believe we will see it and some other upgrades (RWS, LWRs, CITVs etc) on the AK series sooner or later when the PA buys the upgrade program HIT is offering, it’ll become necessary to extend the lives of these tanks.

 

[FuturePAF]

I assume you’re talking about the FY-IV ERA - There is nothing stopping the PA from mounting it on the AK Series directly, the decision to mount it comes down to weight, the AK series has a rather underpowered engine, replacing FY-II with FY-IV will add at least a couple of tons of weight and reduce the range somewhat. If PA thinks the loss in mobility is an acceptable compromise for enhanced protection, it can always mount the FY-IV.

I believe we will see it and some other upgrades (RWS, LWRs, CITVs etc) on the AK series sooner or later when the PA buys the upgrade program HIT is offering, it’ll become necessary to extend the lives of these tanks.

If the PA looks to upgrade the engines in the future, to allow better use of all the new electronics and to help with the weight increase, hopefully by then the hybrid engines just shown in the 2025 parade will be ubiquitous and come down in price. The PA will probably wait till the type 099A and 096 upgrade packages come out in some years.

The reduced signatures; IR and acoustic, could allow new tactics and strategies for tank employment.

 

[Waz]

@Lion what's the numbers of VT-4's we have bro?

 

[Lion]

10+ Regiments.... excluding Haiders.

@Waz that should give you an idea about numbers.

 

[Lion]

If the PA looks to upgrade the engines in the future, to allow better use of all the new electronics and to help with the weight increase, hopefully by then the hybrid engines just shown in the 2025 parade will be ubiquitous and come down in price. The PA will probably wait till the type 099A and 096 upgrade packages come out in some years.

The reduced signatures; IR and acoustic, could allow new tactics and strategies for tank employment.

HIT had an extensive program where they attempted to put a Chinese powertrain into the AK - I don’t think they were successful. They first attempted to use the Chinese engine with the existing transmission which was quite a big ask, I’m sure they also just thought of replacing the powertrain as a whole. But tanks are really designed around their powertrains, I don’t think the Chinese engine will fit into the AK without physical modification of the Hull. I’m not sure if this program is still active.

As for hybrid powertrains, yes, they are promising, but I don’t think they will be able to be retrofitted into existing designs without major modifications (which might render a project too costly). For example, where does one place the batteries? How does one do all the extra wiring? You also need an entire energy conversion mechanism to be added.

 

[FuturePAF]

HIT had an extensive program where they attempted to put a Chinese powertrain into the AK - I don’t think they were successful. They first attempted to use the Chinese engine with the existing transmission which was quite a big ask, I’m sure they also just thought of replacing the powertrain as a whole. But tanks are really designed around their powertrains, I don’t think the Chinese engine will fit into the AK without physical modification of the Hull. I’m not sure if this program is still active.

As for hybrid powertrains, yes, they are promising, but I don’t think they will be able to be retrofitted into existing designs without major modifications (which might render a project too costly). For example, where does one place the batteries? How does one do all the extra wiring? You also need an entire energy conversion mechanism to be added.

Hence why I think the PA and HIT will see how China gets it done and see if it’s worth the cost and effort.

 

[iron shrapnel]

What happened to these upgrades?? Is that a standard protection for AK-1?? @Lion
View attachment 146541

If the Chinese Engine can mate with AK's Chassis then there is nothing stopping them from upgrading AKs down the line... I'm sure the Chinese engines would cost less... The 6tds could be used to keep UDs in service... A massive upgrade could be through turret replacement like the Turkish turret upgrade for the M60s and T-72s... Would love to see AZs and 85s and UDs getting turrets like these... I wonder if you stick a linear autoloader in there.... Make it a complete package.... Ideally you'd expect HIT doing this type of stuff.. considering how much we cry about budget we really don't innovate of even try..

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Here are some extracts from the brochure from rocketsan

 

[iron shrapnel]

If the Chinese Engine can mate with AK's Chassis then there is nothing stopping them from upgrading AKs down the line... I'm sure the Chinese engines would cost less... The 6tds could be used to keep UDs in service... A massive upgrade could be through turret replacement like the Turkish turret upgrade for the M60s and T-72s... Would love to see AZs and 85s and UDs getting turrets like these... I wonder if you stick a linear autoloader in there.... Make it a complete package.... Ideally you'd expect HIT doing this type of stuff.. considering how much we cry about budget we really don't innovate of even try..

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Here are some extracts from the brochure from rocketsan

So,
Replace 6td-1s with 2s left over from AK-1 program in UDs
Overhauling and upgradation of older AK series with Chinese Engine and newer Armor suite
Universal 4 man turret for Type 85s (as AZ-II) and AZ-1 final iteration... (UD optional)
OR (AND)
Universal turret with linear autoloader for AK and UD.. ( i mean why not )..

 

[CSAW]

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