Arabic Coffee shop

[Qaraca]

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That is the DNA test that Azerbaijani (not Arab) scientists made themselves. Qajar's were found to be J1 as well BTW.

An Arab presence in what is modern-day Azerbaijan was historically also pretty strong as it was the border lands of various Arab Caliphates. Same story in Georgia next door where there are even quite a few aristocratic Georgian families (Christian nowadays) that claim and have Arab-origin surnames.

Arabidze for instance literally means "son of Arab".

Arabidze - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Apparently north of Azerbaijan in Dagestan and other places there were until less than 200 years ago Arab speaking villages and Arabic was used as a lingua franca between the various ethnic groups in that region of Russia. As well as a liturgic language of course.

Arabs in the Caucasus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So it is not so unlikely (if the DNA tests are correct which they appear to be) that the Safavids were originally Arabs who over time assimilated with locals.

By the time that they had reached power (500 years ago - Arab presence in the region dates almost 1000 years prior to that) they were only of Arab paternal ancestry and not much else.

Of course, like every other ruling dynasty in the region (no Arab dynasty either that did not intermarry with non-Arabs exist from what I am aware of) they intermarried with a wide range of peoples and ethnic groups to cement alliances etc.

For instance as a Hejazi Hashemite myself on the paternal side I have literally ancestry from all the region (fairly recent at that too) among others from modern-day Turkiye, Circassian etc.

In Arab culture it was and even to this day is common to take your second, third or fourth wife's (the ones that can accord this) from other countries. Let alone how it was way back when marriage often cemented military, economic, political etc. alliances.

I meant Central Asia originally by virtue of them being Turkic in origin. I believe that Oghuz Turks (main Turkic component in Azerbaijanis) were originally from Central Asia.

I never claimed that Safavids were Arab in culture (other than using Arabic as a liturgic language) and importing Shia Arab clergy from modern-day Eastern KSA (Eastern Arabia as a whole), South Lebanon and South Iraq (Shia Muslim Arab strongholds historically) which completely altered the religious makeup of Iran (in particular) and to a lesser extent Azerbaijan (because Sunni Muslims there are in high percentages).

Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Safavids are not much well-liked among Arabs due to their association with massacres of Sunni Muslims (Shafi's) in Iran and their incursions into Iraq. It is often used as a slur against expansionistic (into Arab lands - opportunistic meddling and support for regional Shia proxies) Shia Persians. It is exclusively used against Iranians btw, not Azerbaijanis who most Arabs do not associate with the Safavids at all.

And yes, since I learned about them, I always knew that they were mostly Azeri speaking and relied on Qizilbash tribes for military purposes.

There have also been theories of their origin being Kurdish but I am not sure how that accurate is.

In any case I just saw the modern-day DNA tests and I was surprised because the Safavids actively claimed Sadah (Sayyid) ancestry so if those DNA tests are accurate, it is quite a coincidence.

I never disagreed with their possible Sayyid origins tho? It’s very likely the founder of Safaviyya order were Sayyids. I don’t think they were originally Turks, but by the time they assumed the political organization that they had under Shaykh Junayd, they were both linguistically Turkic and ethnically mixed with Turks, obviously in addition to having a Turkic follower base.



By that logic, Khamenei was also an Arab.

Even the Iranian Azerbaijani poet Shahriar, who was also a Sayyid. A real one with Shajarah.

Yet he considered himself a Turk, as he says here. But he spoke of his Sayyid origins too.

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[_Arabia_]

I never disagreed with their possible Sayyid origins tho? It’s very likely the founder of Safaviyya order were Sayyids. I don’t think they were originally Turks, but by the time they assumed the political organization that they had under Shaykh Junayd, they were both linguistically Turkic and ethnically mixed with Turks, obviously in addition to having a Turkic follower base.

View attachment 210721

By that logic, Khamenei was also an Arab.

Even the Iranian Azerbaijani poet Shahriar, who was also a Sayyid. A real one with Shajarah.

Yet he considered himself a Turk, as he says here. But he spoke of his Sayyid origins too.

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Accept third party cookies

I don't think that we seem to have any disagreements from what I can quickly see?

I was merely shocked/baffled by the fact that recent DNA tests conducted by Azerbaijani researchers showed them to belong to a specific J1 lineage that is commonly regarded as being Hejazi/Alid in origin - across the most established Alid lines in Hejaz itself, the Arab world and wider Muslim and non-Muslim world.

I never claimed or wrote that they are Arab - other than having a possible (now even likely given the modern DNA research and tests) Sayyid/Arab paternal ancestry. So in a sense one could always say that they will have an Arab paternal origin (Y-DNA).

Similarly to how you have millions of people having a paternal Mongol (Chinggisids) ancestry.

That coupled with their self-proclaimed ancestry (that I have seen many question or even ridicule over the years) makes it quite tragicomical from an Arab (Hejazi Hashemite in my case even) perspective.

Why? Because Safavid policies of forceful conversions to Shia Twelver Islam (aided by Shia Arab clergy from modern-day Eastern KSA/Eastern Arabia, South Lebanon and South Iraq mainly) probably (by large) created much of the fundament that the rivalry between Arabs and Iran (nowadays) rests upon.

One could also argue that the Arab Shia clergy and their descendants gave rise to the Iranian regime in 1979?

Why? Because the very same Safavids encouraged their migration to Iran in order to consolidate their political power and religious authority.

All in order to make Iran a more unique entity in the region (bastion of Shia Twelver Islam) that would religiously set them apart from neighboring Sunni Muslims (in their majority) in the form of the Ottomans and Arabs. Further away Sunni Muslim Turkic populations in Central Asia as well.


BTW, I think that we need to differ between ethnic paternal origin (in most cultures of the world your "original" ancestry is defined by your paternal origin) and your general ethnic makeup and the culture (s) and ethnic groups that you identify with.

There have throughout history literally been 100's of dynasties of Arab or claimed Arab ancestry in Asia, Africa and Europe and many of those dynasties/families/related people, have long ago fully assimilated to the local populations.

Even fairly recent Arab (Hadhrami Yemeni mostly) arrivals in South East Asia (alone in Indonesia some 5 million people of Arab origin reside - mostly from Yemen and KSA) and India (Hyderabadi and Deccan Arabs) have blended into the local populations and we are only talking about a few generations.

Let alone lands (as I wrote) such as modern-day Azerbaijan, Northern Iran, Caucasus etc. where an Arab presence almost predated the assumption of the Safavids on the throne, by 1000 years.

Lastly, this potential fact of the Safavids origins (they are basically the creators of modern-day Iran - most scholars and historians consider their ascendency to power as the birth of modern Iran) is a good way to further troll anti-Arab Iranians.