Babur-Class (MILGEM) Corvette | Updates & Discussion

[Starlord]

Doesn't mean it won't under pressure from other EU countries.

Italy has been a reliable partner, we used SPADA 2000, Augusta heli's and now this... I think this won't be a issue.

 

[Tank131]

Doesn't mean it won't under pressure from other EU countries.

It literally never has. At one point, every Pakistani fighter not named F-16 was basically flying with Italian radars. Has a long history of Italian SAMS (Aspide/Spada 2000) and italy thus far has been very reliable. And it will be their loss. PAKISTAN has other options but with CAMM being a british project, CAMM-MR being British/Polish endeavor, CAMM-ER may be left out in the cold and is Italy only. So it could and would lose a lot of potential sales and future orders not just from Pakistan but embargoes make other customers wary. Only countries going for CAMM-ER are those either straddling the political line between East/West. Cant get ASTER/ESSM and either can't get or don't want Chinese/Russian tech in their western ship (thats a small group of countries). Pakistan would immediately replace every CAMM-ER overnight with HISAR-RF/GM-1 (quad pack for HISAR RF). NO Integration needed.

 

[Starlord]

It literally never has. At one point, every Pakistani fighter not named F-16 was basically flying with Italian radars. Has a long history of Italian SAMS (Aspide/Spada 2000) and italy thus far has been very reliable. And it will be their loss. PAKISTAN has other options but with CAMM being a british project, CAMM-MR being British/Polish endeavor, CAMM-ER may be left out in the cold and is Italy only. So it could and would lose a lot of potential sales and future orders not just from Pakistan but embargoes make other customers wary. Only countries going for CAMM-ER are those either straddling the political line between East/West. Cant get ASTER/ESSM and either can't get or don't want Chinese/Russian tech in their western ship (thats a small group of countries). Pakistan would immediately replace every CAMM-ER overnight with HISAR-RF/GM-1 (quad pack for HISAR RF). NO Integration needed.

Will there be a different system in Jinnah Class Frigate? cause if we put the same CAMM-ER then Jinnah will practically be a little larger version of Babur Class, and i don't see a point. Now unless there are some new systems and better AD that is installed, and i wonder if any Babur/Jinnah will be able to carry SMASH?

 

[Tank131]

Will there be a different system in Jinnah Class Frigate? cause if we put the same CAMM-ER then Jinnah will practically be a little larger version of Babur Class, and i don't see a point. Now unless there are some new systems and better AD that is installed, and i wonder if any Babur/Jinnah will be able to carry SMASH?

My understanding is that for now, Baburs and JCF will carry 6 Harbah. They may be changed to SMASH but we will have to wait. As to the SAM, YES JCF are planned to carry CAMM-ER. I think with the right launcher its possibly still a good work. Remember JCF is a slightly larger Babur really. And Babur is a slightly larger Ada. What fits right between? ISTIF class which are equipped with 16 cell MDAS. If Pakistan can get CAMM-ER certified on MDAS and install 16 cell MDAS in JCF the it will carry 6 AShM/LACM and upto 64 SAMs. But if they stick with GSW 26, Then yeah kind of a waste. My suspicion is they always wanted JCF. In order to get it they needed to get Baburs but then asked them to be modified with the VLS as a stop gap while JCF design was being finalized. All kind of a waste with ISTIF existing if you ask me.

 

[rafale]

Apparently the air defence system is the MBDA's CAMM system. What if the Europeans put an embargo on Pakistan like they have done many times in the past?? Who decided this was a good idea? The system itself obviously is very good.

Italy was a industrial nation, producing some of the pioneering equipment in all kinds of industry in the early and mid 20th century.

Now just like many European nations, they produce very little, but defense/military is still a big deal for them.

They would literally sell to anyone giving them money, so chances that Italians would screw Pakistan like French or British to appease someone else like India is low. Obviously you can't rely 100% on one nation.

 

[Princeps]

My suspicion is they always wanted JCF. In order to get it they needed to get Baburs but then asked them to be modified with the VLS as a stop gap while JCF design was being finalized. All kind of a waste with ISTIF existing if you ask me.

Bingo. PN MILGEM was a waste of money imo. If you are buying 4 corvettes you can get them for a lot cheaper than $1.5 billion, transfer-of-technology and local production is ultimately a premium we cannot afford, plus we are separately paying them for JCF design and technology anyways. It's possible that the Turks offered them as a pre-condition for JCF but then again i think it's terrible use of funds for what are very lightly armed corvettes or frigates in JCFs case.

 

[Toxic]

Bingo. PN MILGEM was a waste of money imo. If you are buying 4 corvettes you can get them for a lot cheaper than $1.5 billion, transfer-of-technology and local production is ultimately a premium we cannot afford, plus we are separately paying them for JCF design and technology anyways. It's possible that the Turks offered them as a pre-condition for JCF but then again i think it's terrible use of funds for what are very lightly armed corvettes or frigates in JCFs case.

It ultimately depends on if PN can get Midlas certified for CAMM ER, also baburs are far from lightly armed they have armament comparable to frigates in most green water navies like the Egyptian FREMMs.

I actually think there will be more resistance from the Turks then the Italians on this since they will be wanting the PN to buy their HISAR, for the Italians it's just more money in their pockets since PN will be buying 32 Missiles per ship + Reloads rather just 16

 

[kimjongun]

It ultimately depends on if PN can get Midlas certified for CAMM ER, also baburs are far from lightly armed they have armament comparable to frigates in most green water navies like the Egyptian FREMMs.

I actually think there will be more resistance from the Turks then the Italians on this since they will be wanting the PN to buy their HISAR, for the Italians it's just more money in their pockets since PN will be buying 32 Missiles per ship + Reloads rather just 16

JCF will have 32 camm er???

 

[Toxic]

JCF will have 32 camm er???

No that's just my own speculation if PN get Midlas CAMM ER certified then we will likely see a 8 cell midlas quadpacked 32 CAMM ERs

 

[Princeps]

It ultimately depends on if PN can get Midlas certified for CAMM ER

No it doesn't, if the PN wanted more missiles on these ships they could've had them. Space is there on JCF and likely even Babur for more CAMM-ER tubes, you don't need midlas for that. If you are getting Midlas you might as well just use Hisar.

also baburs are far from lightly armed they have armament comparable to frigates in most green water navies like the Egyptian FREMMs

That's still 16 not 12. FREMM ASWs are also considered lightly armed but then their primary task is supposed to be ASW not AAW. We can't afford a lot of ships so I'd like to see at least 16 and preferably 32 per ship. Missiles only cost a fraction of the ship's total cost after all. Plus it's not just missile count, Smart S mk2 is a pretty mediocre radar and isn't used by any serious AAW ship.

 

[ARMalik]

Italy has been a reliable partner, we used SPADA 2000, Augusta heli's and now this... I think this won't be a issue.

Italy was a industrial nation, producing some of the pioneering equipment in all kinds of industry in the early and mid 20th century.

Now just like many European nations, they produce very little, but defense/military is still a big deal for them.

They would literally sell to anyone giving them money, so chances that Italians would screw Pakistan like French or British to appease someone else like India is low. Obviously you can't rely 100% on one nation.

It literally never has. At one point, every Pakistani fighter not named F-16 was basically flying with Italian radars. Has a long history of Italian SAMS (Aspide/Spada 2000) and italy thus far has been very reliable. And it will be their loss. PAKISTAN has other options but with CAMM being a british project, CAMM-MR being British/Polish endeavor, CAMM-ER may be left out in the cold and is Italy only. So it could and would lose a lot of potential sales and future orders not just from Pakistan but embargoes make other customers wary. Only countries going for CAMM-ER are those either straddling the political line between East/West. Cant get ASTER/ESSM and either can't get or don't want Chinese/Russian tech in their western ship (thats a small group of countries). Pakistan would immediately replace every CAMM-ER overnight with HISAR-RF/GM-1 (quad pack for HISAR RF). NO Integration needed.

Thanks for clarifying Gents, and Good to hear this. CAMM is a really good system, probably top two.

 

[Starlord]

My understanding is that for now, Baburs and JCF will carry 6 Harbah. They may be changed to SMASH but we will have to wait. As to the SAM, YES JCF are planned to carry CAMM-ER. I think with the right launcher its possibly still a good work. Remember JCF is a slightly larger Babur really. And Babur is a slightly larger Ada. What fits right between? ISTIF class which are equipped with 16 cell MDAS. If Pakistan can get CAMM-ER certified on MDAS and install 16 cell MDAS in JCF the it will carry 6 AShM/LACM and upto 64 SAMs. But if they stick with GSW 26, Then yeah kind of a waste. My suspicion is they always wanted JCF. In order to get it they needed to get Baburs but then asked them to be modified with the VLS as a stop gap while JCF design was being finalized. All kind of a waste with ISTIF existing if you ask me.

I hear often from peoples here that PN which always have the least money from the budget try to cut corners. But it doesn't make any sense to have 2 very identical size/system ships Baburs & Jinnah, I mean if they have to buy Babur's for getting Turkish help with Jinnah, than why not try to opt for a 32 VLS ? I guess we have to wait and see when first JCF rollover.

 

[Tank131]

I hear often from peoples here that PN which always have the least money from the budget try to cut corners. But it doesn't make any sense to have 2 very identical size/system ships Baburs & Jinnah, I mean if they have to buy Babur's for getting Turkish help with Jinnah, than why not try to opt for a 32 VLS ? I guess we have to wait and see when first JCF rollover.

Again my suspicion in 1 of 2 reasons for the acquisition of Babur. Either the terms of acquisition of the JCF (Meaning not just assistance in the design work but the entire rights to the project) required some work for Turkish shipbuilding necessitating Babur/Ada acquisition, OR Pakistan needed some additional ships quickly and agreed to buy Baburs to facilitate commonality between the fleet. Both things are possible because what we have noted is that PNs strategy is to quickly acquire a large number of capable platforms even if the platforms themselves arent fully loaded out yet.

My major issue with Babur was the presence of ISTIF already. Should have just acquired those. Granted the cost (with MDAS) will be higher. Much of the shortcoming of VLS numbers could potentially be offset with future MDAS Cell installation (8 cells in 2x2 config in place of the 12 cells of GWS.26) to give you capacity for 32 SAMs (Be it CAMM-ER or GSM-1). Also the potential installment of a 20 cell Goksur at the CIWS position could help offset missile limitations.

 

[kimjongun]

SMASH AShBM from BABUR CLASS CORVETTES

 

[Toxic]

SMASH AShBM from BABUR CLASS CORVETTES View attachment 192576

Has more range too