BJP-Taliban Ties and Their Implications

[hussain0216]

Every side has its reasons to do what it wants to do, which is understandable. But the way forward is in finding a solution that can work for all sides. Taliban refused to accept Afghan Republic and negotiate with it:

Afghan President Hamid Karzai 'plans talks with Taliban'

The government of Afghan President Hamid Karzai is planning to meet the Taliban in Saudi Arabia in an attempt to jump-start peace talks, the BBC learns.

www.bbc.com

Taliban refused to negotiate with the Afghan Republic:

https://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/14/world/asia/afghanistan-taliban/index.html

Abdullah Abdullah reached out to Pakistan for support in 2020:

Afghan official Abdullah on key Pakistan trip in bid for peace

The Afghan leader will hold meetings with Pakistani PM and foreign minister as intra-Afghan talks continue in Doha.

www.aljazeera.com

Pakistan urges Taliban to start peace talks with Afghan gov’t

Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi says Islamabad eager to see the armed group start a dialogue with Kabul.

www.aljazeera.com

Pakistan pins hopes on progress in intra-Afghan dialogue

FM Qureshi says progress in dialogue will “facilitate a reduction in violence, leading to a ceasefire”.

www.dawn.com

But it was too late.

In the end, Pakistan - US bilateral relationship has taken a hit, and Pakistan and Afghanistan have unresolved issues even with Taliban in power. The problem is that Pakistan cannot grow and prosper by ignoring US and India in its strategic calculus, Pakistan must find a way to have a working relationship with both. I am not sure when ties with India can be mended but Pakistan - China calculus is not a counter to US - India calculus. I am sorry but the US will remain a superpower and both US and India will become stronger in time. Pakistan miscalculated its options in Afghanistan and must not repeat this mistake further.

I disagree, I think it got it right in Afghanistan

We are overlooking years of attempts to try and get on the same wavelength with the Afghans

We didn't care if India was present or traded but the ISI repeatedly presented evidence of Afghan NDS collusion with India in anti Pakistan activity

We tried to talk with the afghans and the U.S but to no avail and in the end Pakistan had to act

 

[r3alist]

Every side has its reasons to do what it wants to do, which is understandable. But the way forward is in finding a solution that can work for all sides. Taliban refused to accept Afghan Republic and negotiate with it:

Afghan President Hamid Karzai 'plans talks with Taliban'

The government of Afghan President Hamid Karzai is planning to meet the Taliban in Saudi Arabia in an attempt to jump-start peace talks, the BBC learns.

www.bbc.com

Taliban refused to negotiate with the Afghan Republic:

https://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/14/world/asia/afghanistan-taliban/index.html

Abdullah Abdullah reached out to Pakistan for support in 2020:

Afghan official Abdullah on key Pakistan trip in bid for peace

The Afghan leader will hold meetings with Pakistani PM and foreign minister as intra-Afghan talks continue in Doha.

www.aljazeera.com

Pakistan urges Taliban to start peace talks with Afghan gov’t

Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi says Islamabad eager to see the armed group start a dialogue with Kabul.

www.aljazeera.com

Pakistan pins hopes on progress in intra-Afghan dialogue

FM Qureshi says progress in dialogue will “facilitate a reduction in violence, leading to a ceasefire”.

www.dawn.com

But it was too late.

In the end, Pakistan - US bilateral relationship has taken a hit, and Pakistan and Afghanistan have unresolved issues even with Taliban in power. The problem is that Pakistan cannot grow and prosper by ignoring US and India in its strategic calculus, Pakistan must find a way to have a working relationship with both. I am not sure when ties with India can be mended but Pakistan - China calculus is not a counter to US - India calculus. I am sorry but the US will remain a superpower and both US and India will become stronger in time. Pakistan miscalculated its options in Afghanistan and must not repeat this mistake further. There is no military solution to this emerging dynamic.


See above.

You talk of an India us Pak calculus, but in reality India wants to totally ignore Pakistan and have Pakistan ignored as part of its relationship with the USA.

How do you work with that?

How do you do that not at the expense of China?

This sounds like a post hoc rationalising of wanting to cosy up to USA because ultimately Pak ruler's have significant equities there, they are feeling unloved in the us.

The USA will require you to cede to India for some crumbs

Sounds like the actual problem is how do you say you are not doing this whilst doing it

 

[hussain0216]

You talk of an India us Pak calculus, but in reality India wants to totally ignore Pakistan and have Pakistan ignored as part of its relationship with the USA.

How do you work with that?

How do you do that not at the expense of China?

This sounds like a post hoc rationalising of wanting to cosy up to USA because ultimately Pak ruler's have significant equities there, they are feeling unloved in the us.

The USA will require you to cede to India for some crumbs

Sounds like the actual problem is how do you say you are not doing this whilst doing it

What the USA wanted was for Pakistan to make peace with India play second fiddle and accept Indias hegemony in the region whilst at the same time reducing ties with China, all the while U.S built up bases and infrastructure in Afghanistan

It was Intolerable for Pakistan and will be Intolerable going forward, whatever happens Pakistan must prepare and plan for its enemies especially a hindutva india

 

[Lulldapull]

The mother of the Kauravas was Persian.

In key saari bharaymund zaat Irani priests hain and they know it. Irani’s keep quiet and never blow their trumpet on sensitive issues like this.

You notice a massively resurgent Iran now? US key bhund lugga di hae irani’s ne…..

Hard to talk here because of political correctness…….but you know it brah……

I told you to go to the Aryan Zoroastrian FB forum……but you letting me down.

 

[KAAFIR]

The anthropology and culture is undeniable.

I'm however always interested in contemporary (from those times) historical 3rd party narratives. Oftentimes Greek. Those have no dog in the fight so to speak.

Most of my resources quoted are on those lines.

Sanghis have a habit of dismissing them as western or communist or liberal or leftist or whatever. These are just the times we (have) live(d) in.

Occhi peera ...

Cheers, Doc

Dear Doc,
The matter of the fact Is, you can decode the persian history from the exact date but its hard to decode Indian civilization, its influence and ownership till now. Sanatna was all over, everywhere. You can find it from Indonesia to Veitnaam. That's why we have a verses like "Vasudev Katumbhkam" (The world is a family"), deosnt matter what faith you have, where you are born, what ideology you follow, it was never an Issue in Sanatna. It respects all bcz you are part of it.
Doc, you need to go more in deep to extract facts.

 

[LeGenD]

I disagree, I think it got it right in Afghanistan

We are overlooking years of attempts to try and get on the same wavelength with the Afghans

We didn't care if India was present or traded but the ISI repeatedly presented evidence of Afghan NDS collusion with India in anti Pakistan activity

We tried to talk with the afghans and the U.S but to no avail and in the end Pakistan had to act

What wavelength have we achieved with the Afghans? Both sides are back to square one.

Why Pakistan-Afghanistan Tensions Are Soaring

Since the Taliban's seizure of Afghanistan in 2021, relations have grown tense over the disputed border and other issues.

time.com

India found a way to exploit Pakistan - Afghanistan - US tensions. India is once again finding a way to exploit Pakistan - Taliban tensions. Nothing has changed for Pakistan. In fact, Pakistan - US relations have taken a hit.

You see potential in Taliban regime but it is very likely to promote its culture in the region, the culture of militancy. I don't find this development impressive or a way forward for all in the region.

 

[r3alist]

What the USA wanted was for Pakistan to make peace with India play second fiddle and accept Indias hegemony in the region whilst at the same time reducing ties with China, all the while U.S built up bases and infrastructure in Afghanistan

It was Intolerable for Pakistan and will be Intolerable going forward, whatever happens Pakistan must prepare and plan for its enemies especially a hindutva india

Yea exactly, it's all post hoc rationalising to me.
It just demonstrates that ultimately Pakistan establishment is rent seeking and they can't do it in China, it's effectively a backward feudal mindset, they cannot tolerate new ideas

They don't want to empower their society

So back to uncle Sam, who will make their demands, so will India.

 

[LeGenD]

Yea exactly, it's all post hoc rationalising to me.
It just demonstrates that ultimately Pakistan establishment is rent seeking and they can't do it in China, it's effectively a backward feudal mindset, they cannot tolerate new ideas

They don't want to empower their society

So back to uncle Sam, who will make their demands, so will India.

Pakistan has trade deficit with China and trade surplus with US. What is the output of CPEC? The problem is in the mindset of this OR that. Pakistan does not have to pick sides unnecessarily but find a way forward with all camps in a manner that works for the country in view of its geopolitical options and limitations. There is no ignoring Uncle Sam.

What the USA wanted was for Pakistan to make peace with India play second fiddle and accept Indias hegemony in the region whilst at the same time reducing ties with China, all the while U.S built up bases and infrastructure in Afghanistan

It was Intolerable for Pakistan and will be Intolerable going forward, whatever happens Pakistan must prepare and plan for its enemies especially a hindutva india

Pakistan does not have to play second fiddle to India if it manage to fix its economy. How you plan to do it? Can Pakistan change its neighbors?

 

[hussain0216]

What wavelength have we achieved with the Afghans? Both sides are back to square one.

Why Pakistan-Afghanistan Tensions Are Soaring

Since the Taliban's seizure of Afghanistan in 2021, relations have grown tense over the disputed border and other issues.

time.com

India found a way to exploit Pakistan - Afghanistan - US tensions. India is once again finding a way to exploit Pakistan - Taliban tensions. Nothing has changed for Pakistan. In fact, Pakistan - US relations have taken a hit.

You see potential in Taliban regime but it is very likely to promote its culture in the region, the culture of militancy. I don't find this development impressive or a way forward for all in the region.

Your mistaken

I don't see potential in any Afghan

The Afghans have been our enemies from day one , regardless of what we did, how many we took in, who we helped them against, they are enemies who seek our destruction

Their is NO wavelength or common ground, they are too rock headed to change


So once you understand that, the BEST you can do is try to manage the problem as opposed to try and find a solution that does not exist


Is the Taliban dangerous? - YES, they are Afghans after all, they will cause fassad and they will try to hurt Pakistan regardless of what we do

BUT

iS it better to have a isolated Taliban and Afghanistan
Or is it better to have a Afghan Republic just as hateful as any Afghan, supported by the U.S, NATO and India and accepted by the world?


I'd go with dumb fcuk isolated Afghans

 

[Guru Dutt]

What wavelength have we achieved with the Afghans? Both sides are back to square one.

Why Pakistan-Afghanistan Tensions Are Soaring

Since the Taliban's seizure of Afghanistan in 2021, relations have grown tense over the disputed border and other issues.

time.com

India found a way to exploit Pakistan - Afghanistan - US tensions. India is once again finding a way to exploit Pakistan - Taliban tensions. Nothing has changed for Pakistan. In fact, Pakistan - US relations have taken a hit.

You see potential in Taliban regime but it is very likely to promote its culture in the region, the culture of militancy. I don't find this development impressive or a way forward for all in the region.

well in short they think singin praises of 1000 years old glory and absing on social media will change the ground reality ... no wonder so called social media genration has comletly lost it ....cheers mate

 

[KAAFIR]

The assumption that the former Afghan Republic was hostile to Pakistan is false. Hamid Karzai was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban. Abdullah Abdullah was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban. Even Ashraf Ghani was willing to work with Pakistan and Taliban but Pakistan's support for Taliban frustrated him and he made some bad calls, he was in a no-win situation in any case. Afghan Republic had captured and put thousands of militants in jail, it was also helping hunt TTP inside Afghanistan. Somebody suggested Intra-Afghan Dialogue as the way forward for both Pakistan and Afghanistan that would allow Taliban to be integrated in the US-backed political system of Afghanistan but Trump made a deal with Taliban and decided to close the chapter of American intervention in Afghanistan.

India simply found it easy to exploit Afghanistan - Pakistan - US tensions and have damaged Pak - US relations. Meanwhile Pakistan remains in debt trap and is denied access to advanced Western technology, and Afghanistan - Pakistan tensions continue as usual. CPEC has failed to address Pakistan's economic crisis and other challenges. US and India now have a strategic partnership that will allow the two countries to become stronger and find new avenues to do what they want to do. China will use other countries to fight its battles as well, I wonder which these will be.

The sombre reality is this: India sprung a trap for Pakistan and our strategic depth experts fell in it. I spent years in this forum to caution fellow Pakistani and drive this point home but some ridiculed me.

Im amazed reading this post. Hit right on the nail. Absolutely Great analyses.

 

[hussain0216]

Pakistan does not have to play second fiddle to India if it manage to fix its economy. How you plan to do it? Can Pakistan change its neighbors?

Sure, fix the economy

But that's not what the U.S wanted

They wanted Pakistan to
Reduce ties to China to the basic trade minimum and come out of their influence

To accept India as the regional hegemon and everyone stand against China

To accept U.S and Indian presence in Afghanistan


The U.S wanted Pakistan to play second fiddle to the Hindu enemy and it was unacceptable


Even today, is don't mind the establishment reaching out to the U.S as it's the global superpower after all

BUT, they do so because the establishments assets are in the west and they wouldn't want they isolated, sanctioned or taken

 

[r3alist]

Pakistan has trade deficit with China and trade surplus with US. What is the output of CPEC? The problem is in the mindset of this OR that. Pakistan does not have to pick sides unnecessarily but find a way forward with all camps in a manner that works for the country in view of its geopolitical options and limitations. There is no ignoring Uncle Sam.


Pakistan does not have to play second fiddle to India if it manage to fix its economy. How you plan to do it? Can Pakistan change its neighbors?

Geez, the output of cpec correlates to the output of quality decision making within Pak.

Only Pak can complain about a 40 billion capital injection yet somehow the problem is elsewhere not their governing

You can't keep mixing random things together

Yes ofcourse you need economic ties as much as possible.

You therefore need initiatives which encourage economic output and outcomes.

You don't therefore let a rent seeking army control everything, why is distant USA the biggest trade partner anyway, you are in Asia

Why don't you address that?

Why is economic value not being cultivated?

 

[hussain0216]

Im amazed reading this post. Hit right on the nail. Absolutely Great analyses.

It's wrong

We gave the Afghans a red line with Indian involvement, they refused to understand and in the end had to be removed

 

[vsdoc]

Irani’s keep quiet and never blow their trumpet on sensitive issues like this.

Iranis keep quiet because engaging on their past forces them to also engage on the millennial spiritual and mental gymnastics of explaining their Muslim present. That is the bottom line.

I've engaged with generations of conflicted Iranians on the old forum. Many reached out off the forum wanting to know more about Zoroastrianism and how they could revert.

There was one shameless ungrateful twat who was settled in the Netherlands. Trying to pass his qualification exam to become a English teacher for international translators. Basically he had ro reach English to different nationalities.

There was an online exam where he spent 3 hours with me in the phone (WhatsApp) sending me the questions one by one as they appeared online, and I told him the answer.

The results come instantaneously and he scored in the low 90s, obviously qualified this very difficult exam, and in fact was the top percentiles as I recall.

Anyways, long story short, I blocked him a few months later.

In London, at Holland & Barrett's, their over 150 year old pharmacy chain, I went with a long WhatsApp list of Bach flower remedy medicines my wife wanted me to pick up.

The very sweet girl serving me, took nearly 3 hours sitting on the floor with hundreds of vials spread all around, with two junior helpers, to get all in my list, and then also make sure all had at least 2 years of shelf life remaining.

She was wearing a cream hijab.

She looked like a Parsi. So I got talking to her and asked her where she was from. She said, you guessed it, Iran. I was delighted. And told her I was a Parsi Zoroastrian. She gave me a big beaming smile, especially when I showed her my Faravahr around my neck.

But she then said something really really melancholic, that shook me to the roots of my being. I told my wife and kids when I got back to India too.

She said, You people have such a glorious history.

I was a little confused. I told her, WE people have the same glorious history.

To which a really sad hopeless look passed across her face, and sge looked down , and gesticulated with her hands as if swatting something away. And shook her head and saud in a sift low voice, Oh we, no, anyway ... trailing off.

Cheers, Doc