Deals for 26 Rafale-M jets, three Scorpene submarines to be signed by next month: Navy Chief

[Raj-Hindustani]

NATO exercises have F-15s, F-16s and Rafales losing almost every time against the F-35, but in IAF hands it will be different it seems....

Is this your personal belief, Sir? What can I say?

 

[Yasser76]

Is this your personal belief, Sir? What can I say?

Just agree, it may make you happy and stop spouting BS

 

[Yasser76]

Yes, there's no doubt — 5th generation fighter jets are more advanced than 4th gen, and I’m not denying that. But when someone claims they can completely dominate all 4th gen fighters, I have to disagree. It’s not that simple.

Secondly, it often comes down to belief and trust in the platform. If we're talking about U.S. aircraft, I’d still give them an edge — they’ve had over 40 years of operational experience, and their platforms are mature. Even though a stealth fighter was shot down in the 1990s, they’ve continued evolving.

But can we say the same about Chinese aircraft?

You may prefer backing them, but others might hold a different view — and that’s fair. Personally, I believe in practical, proven capabilities over just specs on paper.

I can give you an example with Chinese SSBN submarines — despite being in development for a few decades, it wasn't until they began patrolling in international waters that other nations got the opportunity to assess them. The findings showed that they were quite noisy and still lag behind, even compared to Russian submarines.

So when it comes to an unproven platform, you really can’t draw definitive conclusions. Maybe it’s good, maybe it can be detected — we don’t know for sure yet. But some people are already acting based purely on belief, claiming that Chinese stealth fighters would easily overpower something like the Rafale.

Anyway, I haven’t even touched on aspects like ground support or broader operational capability yet if flying above uncontrolled and enemy airspace

OK, so you are basically saying it is a matter of opinion, we can all agree on that. My opinion is that Chinese 5th gen will absolutely crush 4th Gen western tech, but it may be hard work.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Yes, there's no doubt — 5th generation fighter jets are more advanced than 4th gen, and I’m not denying that. But when someone claims they can completely dominate all 4th gen fighters, I have to disagree. It’s not that simple.

Secondly, it often comes down to belief and trust in the platform. If we're talking about U.S. aircraft, I’d still give them an edge — they’ve had over 40 years of operational experience, and their platforms are mature. Even though a stealth fighter was shot down in the 1990s, they’ve continued evolving.

But can we say the same about Chinese aircraft?

You may prefer backing them, but others might hold a different view — and that’s fair. Personally, I believe in practical, proven capabilities over just specs on paper.

I can give you an example with Chinese SSBN submarines — despite being in development for a few decades, it wasn't until they began patrolling in international waters that other nations got the opportunity to assess them. The findings showed that they were quite noisy and still lag behind, even compared to Russian submarines.

So when it comes to an unproven platform, you really can’t draw definitive conclusions. Maybe it’s good, maybe it can be detected — we don’t know for sure yet. But some people are already acting based purely on belief, claiming that Chinese stealth fighters would easily overpower something like the Rafale.

Anyway, I haven’t even touched on aspects like ground support or broader operational capability yet if flying above uncontrolled and enemy airspace

Would you apply the same logic of “unproven platforms” when comparing a solid Mk1A Tejas vs an upgraded Mig-21/J-7? This isn’t so far off from comparing a rafale vs a J-35 for instance.

There’s also a generational gap here, and only the latter is “proven”. Would you assume that Tejas won’t dominate the Mig-21, because only the latter is proven and built by a country that has decades of experience etc etc?

If not, then why cast doubt only on Chinese next gen designs when it comes to their match up vs rafale or any other 4th gen?

Also, let’s not derail this thread any further. Might be best to find another suitable thread to discuss what deficiencies you might see in, e.g J-35 that makes it less credible than its western counterparts. Thanks.

 

[Tejas Spokesman]

Yes, all "cleared" as usual, always "cleared" never signed hey?

List a deal cleared by CCS that has not been signed within a month and I will wire transfer you a million bucks.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Would you apply the same logic of “unproven platforms” when comparing a solid Mk1A Tejas vs an upgraded Mig-21/J-7? This isn’t so far off from comparing a rafale vs a J-35 for instance.

There’s also a generational gap here, and only the latter is “proven”. Would you assume that Tejas won’t dominate the Mig-21, because only the latter is proven and built by a country that has decades of experience etc etc?

If not, then why cast doubt only on Chinese next gen designs when it comes to their match up vs rafale or any other 4th gen?

Also, let’s not derail this thread any further. Might be best to find another suitable thread to discuss what deficiencies you might see in, e.g J-35 that makes it less credible than its western counterparts. Thanks.

As I said, it often comes down to belief. Take the JF-17 Block 3 and HAL Tejas Mk1A for example — both have fairly similar capabilities. Yet, many from Pakistan and China will always back the Chinese-made fighter as superior, regardless of the actual specifications. It’s less about facts and more about beliefs

For a instance, I don't believe chinese planes are same league as USA 5th gen fighters

This was already derail at start – by mocking it by senior member.


Also, let’s not derail this thread any further.

Anyway, i agreed.

 

[iblini]

Yes, there's no doubt — 5th generation fighter jets are more advanced than 4th gen, and I’m not denying that. But when someone claims they can completely dominate all 4th gen fighters, I have to disagree. It’s not that simple.

Secondly, it often comes down to belief and trust in the platform. If we're talking about U.S. aircraft, I’d still give them an edge — they’ve had over 40 years of operational experience, and their platforms are mature. Even though a stealth fighter was shot down in the 1990s, they’ve continued evolving.

But can we say the same about Chinese aircraft?

You may prefer backing them, but others might hold a different view — and that’s fair. Personally, I believe in practical, proven capabilities over just specs on paper.

I can give you an example with Chinese SSBN submarines — despite being in development for a few decades, it wasn't until they began patrolling in international waters that other nations got the opportunity to assess them. The findings showed that they were quite noisy and still lag behind, even compared to Russian submarines.

So when it comes to an unproven platform, you really can’t draw definitive conclusions. Maybe it’s good, maybe it can be detected — we don’t know for sure yet. But some people are already acting based purely on belief, claiming that Chinese stealth fighters would easily overpower something like the Rafale.

Anyway, I haven’t even touched on aspects like ground support or broader operational capability yet if flying above uncontrolled and enemy airspace

lol, at the end of the day, it's still about worshipping the west, you are betting your country's security and pilot's life on the fault of the others, that's some cool smoking logic right there but
We have an example here in South Asia though, during 2019 Swift resort, PAF's DA-20 SEAD aircraft has successfully suppressed it's counterpart and jammed mr abhi's comm with other IAF aircrafts, ground support, and that JN101F on the DA-20 was decade old Chinese EW equipment.

 

[harpy1]

NATO exercises have F-15s, F-16s and Rafales losing almost every time against the F-35, but in IAF hands it will be different it seems....

What is NATO exercise got to do with India . Of course they would obliterate Indian defense
But china is not NATO and cannot fight like NATO
As for Pakistan ...enough said

 

[harpy1]

USA has over 500 F350and 187 Raptors flying with truth stealth and real next generation enginesx

You guys keep bringing up J35 how many are in service
I believe nil not one
So please stop comparing USA to Pakistan or china
Rafale will fight legacy dated falcons handful of J10 at best
As Yasser would say show me the deal signature numbers and entry date
Plane is not even intiall operation cleared
Talk about premature

 

[Beijingwalker]

So please stop comparing USA to Pakistan or china

But US military chiefs always like to compare with us

China could sink all US carriers in 20 minutes, Pentagon chief warns

US Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth warns China’s hypersonic missiles could destroy all US aircraft carriers in 20 minutes.

interestingengineering.com

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

lol, at the end of the day, it's still about worshipping the west, you are betting your country's security and pilot's life on the fault of the others, that's some cool smoking logic right there but
We have an example here in South Asia though, during 2019 Swift resort, PAF's DA-20 SEAD aircraft has successfully suppressed it's counterpart and jammed mr abhi's comm with other IAF aircrafts, ground support, and that JN101F on the DA-20 was decade old Chinese EW equipment.

Now sur sure but if members from Pakistan, support you blindly than you don't use the same sentence.... That time comes - friends, brother etc.

But I have strong technical reasons to believe - and that's back by written history, for example USA flying stealth aircrafts from more than 40 years, etc etc.... and believe their stealth technology is matured, others are preety new and can't be trusted, at the movement , you are saying - I am worshiping - no I don't support someone blindly the name of friendship as many do.

 

[iblini]

- I am worshiping - no I don't support someone blindly the name of friendship as many do.

lol, you are diverting again, you wanted example, then i have given you one that was related with India and Pakistan, asked your pilot abhi and airforce.

 

[iblini]

Now sur sure but if members from Pakistan, support you blindly than you don't use the same sentence.... That time comes - friends, brother etc.

But I have strong technical reasons to believe - and that's back by written history, for example USA flying stealth aircrafts from more than 40 years, etc etc.... and believe their stealth technology is matured, others are preety new and can't be trusted, at the movement , you are saying - I am worshiping - no I don't support someone blindly the name of friendship as many do.

Anyway all is well, you or any Indian's trust or praise is the last things I want, like I said, happy purchase, adios.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

lol, you are diverting again, you wanted example, then i have given you one that was related with India and Pakistan, asked your pilot abhi and airforce.

Yeah, am I really diverting? A 4++ generation fighter once shot down a 3rd gen aircraft by BVR missile — and that F-16 Block 52, by the way, is considered one of the finest and most proven platforms among 4th gen fighters.

Does that make you feel better by referring to it?

Anyway, the reason many of us rate U.S. military products highly is because they’ve consistently proven themselves in real-world scenarios — not just on paper or in flashy brochures.

 

[iblini]

A 4++ generation fighter once shot down a 3rd gen aircraft — and that F-16 Block 52

I thought you were better than this, EW domain suppressed by DA-20, pilot downed and captured, friendly fired out of panic and killed five service men on the rescue heli, all these disaster action but yet you still bought that fairytail story, another Indian MAGA spotted, endless wins...
bye, you are wasting my time now.