Do Pakistani Law Colleges teach Hindu Personal Law as a part of your Law academic course?

[Baibers_1260]

All the other laws are codified so yes Islam will see a major change if such UCC is being implemented nation wide. The law will move closer to the secular code under UCC.

So indian Uniform Civil Code will change Islam ? Changing "Islam" everywhere? Could you clarify if the Indian Uniform Civil Code will be applicable in Saudi Arabia since it is changing "Islam" . ?
Could you clarify of the Uniform Civil Code will also affect the Hindu Unified Family Tax assessment laws ?

 

[Baibers_1260]

I dont know there's no national draft UCC yet. It doesn't exist.

Aren't you discussing it in your course? Or are your discussions relevant only to "changing Islam " ?

 

[Baibers_1260]

@Sam6536

So there is no draft of the UCC in circulation yet ?
Then how are you discussing it in your college?

 

[Sam6536]

So indian Uniform Civil Code will change Islam ? Changing "Islam" everywhere? Could you clarify if the Indian Uniform Civil Code will be applicable in Saudi Arabia since it is changing "Islam" . ?
Could you clarify of the Uniform Civil Code will also affect the Hindu Unified Family Tax assessment laws ?

The UCC is concerned with civil matters like marriage, divorce, inheritance, and adoption. It would replace the current Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act, 1937, which permits certain practices (like polygamy and unequal inheritance) that conflict with gender equal, and secular laws.

Its only an India specific civil code so why will it apply to Saudi Arabia?

Yes UCC will very likely abolish HUF system.

 

[Sam6536]

@Sam6536

So there is no draft of the UCC in circulation yet ?
Then how are you discussing it in your college?

We were discussing on the idea of UCC and Utrrakhand UCC not the draft.

 

[Baibers_1260]

The UCC is concerned with civil matters like marriage, divorce, inheritance, and adoption. It would replace the current Muslim Personal Law (Shariat) Application Act, 1937, which permits certain practices (like polygamy and unequal inheritance) that conflict with modern, gender-equal, and secular laws.

What else would it would it replace?


Your Jharkhand Law Council clearly has a different opinion.
Here is a commentary by
Amitesh Lal, Principal Judge, Family Courts, Jamshedpur
Let me know what you think of his opinion.

https://jajharkhand.in/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Marriage-Divorce-under-tribal-and-customary-laws.pdf.

The principal law governing marriage in India
is the Hindu Marriage Act, 1955 and The Special Marriage Act,
1954. The Hindu Marriage Act applies to all Hindus, including
Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains but not to persons of tribal
community. This is because the Act was designed to apply to
Hindus, and tribals are not considered to be Hindus under the
Act. For tribal communities, the laws are even more complex,
as they are often based on traditional customs and practices
that may not be in line with the laws of the land and till date
remain uncodified. The tribes have their own traditional laws
governing marriage, which are based on their own customs
and practices. The Special Marriage Act, 1954, provides a
secular alternative to Hindu marriage, and can be used by
any Indian citizen, regardless of religion.

 

[Sam6536]

What else would it would it replace?


Your Jharkhand Law Council clearly has a different opinion.
Here is a commentary by
Amitesh Lal, Principal Judge, Family Courts, Jamshedpur
Let me know what you think of his opinion.

https://jajharkhand.in/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Marriage-Divorce-under-tribal-and-customary-laws.pdf.

The principal law governing marriage in India
is the Hindu Marriage Act, 1955 and The Special Marriage Act,
1954. The Hindu Marriage Act applies to all Hindus, including
Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains but not to persons of tribal
community. This is because the Act was designed to apply to
Hindus, and tribals are not considered to be Hindus under the
Act. For tribal communities, the laws are even more complex,
as they are often based on traditional customs and practices
that may not be in line with the laws of the land and till date
remain uncodified. The tribes have their own traditional laws
governing marriage, which are based on their own customs
and practices. The Special Marriage Act, 1954, provides a
secular alternative to Hindu marriage, and can be used by
any Indian citizen, regardless of religion.

I understand your point. Even in Uttrakhand UCC STs are exempted.

ST's enjoy constitutional protection under 5th and 6th schedule implemented in 1950.

 

[Baibers_1260]

We were discussing on the idea of UCC and Utrrakhand UCC not the draft.

What's the idea of UCC? All Western countries have UCC, and the idea is based on Judeo-Christian principles developed over time. The Communist countries implemented the same UCC too regardless of origin. So what's novel about the "idea" of the UCC for Bharat? Implement a copy of the UCC from the USA or Denmark and be done with it,
Curious if the Indian UCC will unclude same sex marriages or inheritance for the maintenance of pets such as dogs, Many Western countries have them.

 

[Baibers_1260]

I understand your point. Even in Uttrakhand UCC STs are exempted.

ST's enjoy constitutional protection under 5th and 6th schedule implemented in 1950.

So the Universal Civil Code is not that Universal.

 

[Baibers_1260]

@Sam6536,

Curious about your Article 19 ( correct me if I got the article wrong). How does "equality before the law " apply to a "Uniform" Civil Code which exempts quite a few from the provisions?
Is that in conformity with your constitution or does it matter?

 

[Sam6536]

What's the idea of UCC? All Western countries have UCC, and the idea is based on Judeo-Christian principles developed over time. The Communist countries implemented the same UCC too regardless of origin. So what's novel about the "idea" of the UCC for Bharat? Implement a copy of the UCC from the USA or Denmark and be done with it,

Provision of UCC has been debated since 1948 (then draft article 35 of the constitution). Dr Br Ambedkar was the most vocal proponent of UCC and Hindu Code Bill. Both were not implemented back then due to rejection by the respective policymakers and society at large.

Ambedkar's idea was if Hindus accept a codified bill then the way towards a UCC would be easier. Back then the hindu code bill envisioned equally property rights for women which was too progressive for its time.

Ambedkar's idea of equal coparcenary rights for women was implemented in 2005. And all the subsequent Hindu code acts (HMA, HSA etc) were enacted in a codified manner in subsequent years.

The main point is "societal lag" here. UCC is not anything new it was debated upon the inception of India and the constitution.

Curious if the Indian UCC will unclude same sex marriages or inheritance for the maintenance of pets such as dogs, Many Western countries have them.

They likely wont. Indian SC decrimalized Article 377(homsexuality), recognised 3rd gender but courts said that legalising marriage and other rights depends on the legislature, which the legislature wont do. Also read in right of privacy in this context.

I remember Justice Chandrachu's line "Societal morality cannot trump over individual morality"

 

[Baibers_1260]

Provision of UCC has been debated since 1948 (then draft article 35 of the constitution). Dr Br Ambedkar was the most vocal proponent of UCC and Hindu Code Bill. Both were not implemented back then due to rejection by the respective policymakers and society at large.

Ambedkar's idea was if Hindus accept a codified bill then the way towards a UCC would be easier. Back then the hindu code bill envisioned equally property rights for women which was too progressive for its time.

Ambedkar's idea of equal coparcenary rights for women was implemented in 2005. And all the subsequent Hindu code acts (HMA, HSA etc) were enacted in a codified manner in subsequent years.

The main point is "societal lag" here. UCC is not anything new it was debated upon the inception of India and the constitution.

They likely wont. Indian SC decrimalized Article 377(homsexuality), recognised 3rd gender but courts said that legalising marriage and other rights depends on the legislature, which the legislature wont do. Also read in right of privacy in this context.

I remember Justice Chandrachu's line "Societal morality cannot trump over individual morality"

Don't need that lecture. I am aware of Dr.Ambedkar's views and agree with most of them, including his famous essay "Annihilation of Caste"
The Jharkhand Family Courts whose Judges incidentally are quite appreciative of Dr.Ambedkar's views seem to have a different take on the UCC especially on marriage laws. Your comment on the Jharkhand Law Councils stance is awaited. Could you do a clinical analysis of the write up by
Amitesh Lal, Principal Judge Family Courts, Jamshedpur? The link is below.

https://jajharkhand.in/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Marriage-Divorce-under-tribal-and-customary-laws.pdf

 

[Sam6536]

@Sam6536,

Curious about your Article 19 ( correct me if I got the article wrong). How does "equality before the law " apply to a "Uniform" Civil Code which exempts quite a few from the provisions?
Is that in conformity with your constitution or does it matter?

Its Article 14. Article 19 covers freedom of speech and expression.

The reason the Constitution allows the government to exempt tribes is due to the principle of "Reasonable Classification" under Article 14 means that while the government cannot grant special privileges ("Equality before the law"), it can treat different groups differently ("Equal protection of the laws") if the classification is both rational and relevant to the law's goal. This constitutional test requires the classification to meet two criteria: first, there must be an Intelligible Differentia (a clear, rational reason for grouping people, like the unique constitutional status of Scheduled Tribes), and second, there must be a Rational Nexus (a logical link between that grouping and the ultimate purpose of the law, such as the government's constitutional duty to preserve tribal customs overriding the goal of the Uniform Civil Code).

 

[Sam6536]

Don't need that lecture. I am aware of Dr.Ambedkar's views and agree with most of them, including his famous essay "Annihilation of Caste"
The Jharkhand Family Courts whose Judges incidentally are quite appreciative of Dr.Ambedkar's views seem to have a different take on the UCC especially on marriage laws. Your comment on the Jharkhand Law Councils stance is awaited. Could you do a clinical analysis of the write up by
Amitesh Lal, Principal Judge Family Courts, Jamshedpur? The link is below.

https://jajharkhand.in/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Marriage-Divorce-under-tribal-and-customary-laws.pdf

I'll do it later. I'll have to go through the document.

 

[Baibers_1260]

Its Article 14. Article 19 covers freedom of speech and expression.

The reason the Constitution allows the government to exempt tribes is due to the principle of "Reasonable Classification" under Article 14 means that while the government cannot grant special privileges ("Equality before the law"), it can treat different groups differently ("Equal protection of the laws") if the classification is both rational and relevant to the law's goal. This constitutional test requires the classification to meet two criteria: first, there must be an Intelligible Differentia (a clear, rational reason for grouping people, like the unique constitutional status of Scheduled Tribes), and second, there must be a Rational Nexus (a logical link between that grouping and the ultimate purpose of the law, such as the government's constitutional duty to preserve tribal customs overriding the goal of the Uniform Civil Code).

So if another group ( like Muslims for example) cannot provide a "rational nexus" for "equality before the law" it cannot claim any protection or equality under the Indian secular democratic constitution. The onus for claiming equal rights as a citizen lies on the individual or group and the equal rights are not applicable automatically.

Thanks for the clarification.