European Defence News and Discussions

[Ali_Baba]

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GCAP will explode to, it need time and they will turn ther face to F35 or Kaan....

No chance that Tempest/gcap will fail…..the uk and Japan combo is working very well on the project, and Italy is inline too, none of their theatrics either.

GCAP has better chance of working because they are not having to learn how to make a fighter jet engine, Turkiye is which is a significant project risk.

This is wishful thinking on your part.

 

[Oublious]

No chance that Tempest/gcap will fail…..the uk and Japan combo is working very well on the project, and Italy is inline too, none of their theatrics either.

GCAP has better chance of working because they are not having to learn how to make a fighter jet engine, Turkiye is which is a significant project risk.

This is wishful thinking on your part.

thats not treu, Italians and Japan have ther own problems. Japan do not accept new partners and Italians are not happy with Uk approach with sharing technology. For now it is paused, until all the problems are solved. The project is worth 50 billion euro.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

No chance that Tempest/gcap will fail…..the uk and Japan combo is working very well on the project, and Italy is inline too, none of their theatrics either.

GCAP has better chance of working because they are not having to learn how to make a fighter jet engine, Turkiye is which is a significant project risk.

This is wishful thinking on your part.

Maybe the GCAP might come out as a 5.5 gen, the FCAS could likely become a flop.

BTW, it is unlikely Europe will develop a true 6th gen, even the US is struggling right now.

 

[Eşbah]

Maybe the GCAP might come out as a 5.5 gen, the FCAS could likely become a flop.

BTW, it is unlikely Europe will develop a true 6th gen, even the US is struggling right now.

FCAS is history. It's done. They're trying to save the cooperation by developing two separate jets but right now even that seems unlikely.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

FCAS is history. It's done. They're trying to save the cooperation by developing two separate jets but right now even that seems unlikely.

Let's see about the GCAP; if it becomes the second Airbus or the second FCAS.

 

[Shui]

So is it true that both EU projects are unable to deliver a true tailless next gen fighter jet, or the model doesn't represnt the final prototype?

 

[imadul]

Saab KFS is a viable option for Germans.
Saab has pedigree of developing and manufacturing fighter planes.

KFS (Koncept Framtida Stridssystem)
They will study till 2030 to make a decision about approach
1. Crewed fighter
2.Collaborative Combat Aircraft (CCA)

But notable is, every nation has understood it is a systems approach, not individual fighters.
But they don't develop their own engines, GE licensed modified versions.

 

[Ali_Baba]

thats not treu, Italians and Japan have ther own problems. Japan do not accept new partners and Italians are not happy with Uk approach with sharing technology. For now it is paused, until all the problems are solved. The project is worth 50 billion euro.

There is NO pause in the GCAP programme. Period.

 

[Deino]

Via the Secret Projects Forum an interesting read

Interesting piece in the Guardian:

France and Germany agreed to build the fighter jet of the future. Now they can’t agree who is in charge​

"A former senior French official, who asked to remain anonymous, said the project appeared to have been conceived “at a very high political level”, without wider discussions in the ministry of defence about whether the countries had the same needs. “We do not have the same way of doing war, Germany and France,” they said. “I was quite troubled by this.”"

"“Dassault is not easy,” said the former senior French official. “They have got amazing engineers … but on the political side they behave how they want. And now they don’t even need this programme, they have many export sales coming from Rafale. So they are very comfortable, and their collaborative spirit is not good. They piss me off."

"Bertrand de Cordoue, Airbus’s former head of EU and Nato public affairs, said tensions had existed between the two companies from the start, with Airbus engineering teams regarding Dassault as the competition.

“For the German part of Airbus, it was not natural to accept coming out of the existing Eurofighter scheme,” said de Cordue, who is now an adviser at the Jacques Delors Institute, a thinktank. “The teams working on Eurofighter were not spontaneously accepting the idea to totally change their mindset and work with a French company that, on the export market, was a competitor, not a partner.”

Dassault, in turn, has resisted handing over its fighter-building know-how to Airbus, fearing a competitor would acquire French expertise. De Cordoue argued that since the technology was funded by French taxpayers, it should be “more the ownership of the French authorities” – and that Dassault should cooperate."

"Germany’s more assertive approach is partly a result of a shifting power dynamic. When the FCAS programme started in 2018, its defence spending was modest. Now, after the decision to rearm following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, Berlin expects to spend €150bn by 2029 – nearly twice France’s budget.

“France has 60 years of being the accepted leader,” said [Francis] Tusa. “Suddenly Germany is saying: ‘We don’t have to be deferential.’”

“I think they should have kept going with a single aircraft,” Tusa said. “They [Airbus and Dassault] need to go to counselling and basically be told: ‘Come on guys, play nice.’”

Dassault declined to comment."

"Macron, meanwhile, has continued to insist publicly that the project can be saved, telling the Munich Security Conference this month: “It’s hard for me to understand how we will build new common solutions if we destroy the few ones that we have.”

The former French official was more downbeat, pointing to Macron’s presidency ending in May 2027. His possible successor, Marine Le Pen’s far-right National Rally party, is softer on Russia and may abandon the project entirely.

“My feeling is that this project was born with Macron,” the official said, “and could die with Macron.”"

Apart from the comments from Francis Tusa (who is a British defence analyst), this all seems sourced from the French side, and it's the first significant criticism of Dassault's behaviour I think I've seen from French sources.

 

[Oublious]

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[Shui]

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[Ali_Baba]

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The problems that France has with Germany, will be 10x worse with India. This is just theatrical posturing to try and force Germany to become a junior "cash" partner.

 

[harpy1]

The problems that France has with Germany, will be 10x worse with India. This is just theatrical posturing to try and force Germany to become a junior "cash" partner.

No this is Indian military looking to fast track to sixth generation fighters since China is galloping away

Russia can't get fifth generation right
USA can't be trusted
That leaves Europe
Both Gcap and Airbus
And
Fcas and France

India just signed massive trade deal with Europe they actively said trade technology and defense

Rafale and German submarines now
Fcas and Gcap and others technology later IE 2035

This really is mother of all deals

 

[BonPlan]

No chance that Tempest/gcap will fail…..the uk and Japan combo is working very well on the project, and Italy is inline too, none of their theatrics either.

GCAP has better chance of working because they are not having to learn how to make a fighter jet engine, Turkiye is which is a significant project risk.

This is wishful thinking on your part.

What is the last jet engine studied and serially produced alone by UK? Italy ? Japan?

 

[BonPlan]

thats not treu, Italians and Japan have ther own problems. Japan do not accept new partners and Italians are not happy with Uk approach with sharing technology. For now it is paused, until all the problems are solved. The project is worth 50 billion euro.

Fact is that GCAP is in a better shape than FCAS.