Fighter jet engine deal with India to start this year: GE Aerospace's Amy Gowder

[Nilgiri]

Take note, Nobody! Repeat, Nobody!

Going to transfer any meaningful Top Cutting Edge Technology, which they developed by spending Decades of Research & Investing Billions of Dollars.

Be it Know-Why, Know-How, Metallurgy for Jet Engines.

You have to figure out yourselves how to make your own efficient Engine.

All you will be doing is ""Screwdrivergiri" to "Critical Subsystems" imported from OEM and manufacturing "Noncritical Subsystems" that too "Designed by OEM". Without learning any Know-How & Know-why.

There is no other way out other then going in all the pain, tears & burning money with all "Risked Failures".

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here. Everyone has to start somewhere. In the end it depends where the best HR was prioritized and why. It wasn't in jet engines in India's case as the priorities elsewhere were more pressing. Now there is catch up to be done here.

 

[Nilgiri]

The western support you are talking about was infact always available to India alongside Soviet support at the same time, infact we had far more Western support than china.
China was mostly offered just a product that they themselves had to reverse engineer compare that to us we were offered full fledged collaboration and partnership but we failed to capitalise on it

But we failed to capitalise on it barring few exceptions (Nukes and Agni 1 missiles), west Germany was fine with collaborating with us on anything we asked them for (a much better deal than the Chinese had even at the peak of Sino American romance).

Same case with France, but we again dragged out feets due to oh so precious morality, Respecting IP rights and Siloing of all the related departments.
Take helicopter engine for example we had a 70-30 workshare aggreement for Shakti engine (China would have been jumping like a Teenage girl at this deal) but we seem to be failing to capitalise on this deal with HTSE 1200,
If we had succeeded in capitalising the engine deal we would not have been looking for a collaboration for the 200kw engine of IMRH.

HAL produces LM 2500 here in India, if China had the same deal as us, they would have had a copy of LM 2500 long ago, but look at our pathetic selves, we don't even have an active marine engine program, we are not even trying to learn from LM 2500 forget reverse engineering.

You are making an awful lot of assumptions....but you also answer somewhat the reason why (nukes and missiles).

These soaked up Indian apex HR for a lot longer time than they did with PRC. If you know the reason why/how w.r.t the raw number of PLA (PVA) Mao threw into Korea on account of Stalin... in what the leg up would be (expedient homework answers - on exactly things like nukes and missiles regarding their material research incl metallurgy and its substantial process control, especially for non-industrialised society) for the next 10 years substantially to keep the common enemy US at bay.

Others here simply say "not enough money thrown at the problem"...when they don't quite realise where the apex HR time commitments were and why and for how long given what was given versus what had to be done the hard way with the folks you have (before they can be moved elsewhere).

It is not a pressure fed system of money when you have scarce talent to deploy well first. If the army is out of town, air dropping guns to that area wont create a fighting force.

My dad's roommate at IISc was studying metallurgy at the time and has since had a career as a metallurgist, one of India's finest.

He has worked at DMRL and Midhani. But the projects of muster for large batch of years were not jet engine related to any significant degree simply because India did not get a leg up on the first inner layer of strategic priorities and commensurate time was spent there to develop the requisite expertise and basis that is taken for granted today.

 

[BhootPishash]

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here. Everyone has to start somewhere. In the end it depends where the best HR was prioritized and why. It wasn't in jet engines in India's case as the priorities elsewhere were more pressing. Now there is catch up to be done here.

France Really Giving India "All" Its Jet Engine Tech? Sounds Too Good to be True?

The story is scarcely believable. Jawed Ashraf, the Indian ambassador to France, offered insight in January into ongoing

frontierindia.com

Nobody will transfer you Know-How and Know-why of :



You will Screwdriver foreign engines but will never learn why engine was designed so. Tradeoffs & tweaking achieved between various data points to get best out of engines.

Neither you will be handed over cutting edge metallurgy, forging and drilling technologies also ceramics & composites.

You will not reach heaven until you yourself die.

 

[Nilgiri]

France Really Giving India "All" Its Jet Engine Tech? Sounds Too Good to be True?

The story is scarcely believable. Jawed Ashraf, the Indian ambassador to France, offered insight in January into ongoing

frontierindia.com

View attachment 16538

View attachment 16539

Nobody will transfer you Know-How and Know-why of :

View attachment 16540

You will Screwdriver foreign engines but will never learn why engine was designed so. Tradeoffs & tweaking achieved between various data points to get best out of engines.

Neither you will be handed over cutting edge metallurgy, forging and drilling technologies also ceramics & composites.

You will not reach heaven until you yourself die.

Again I don't understand the point of repeating the same thing again, this time with an article from some "MBA international business" guy and his bullet points that neither add or detract from my position and what I sense of yours.

My case is simply you get out what you put in. You can analyse what you put in over the time period and come to some objective conclusions on relative deficiencies and successes.

I mean was India wrong to take (what was on offer w.r.t) the Viking engine and convert it to Vikas and much more than that later?

ISRO never learned anything in the end and hasn't succeeded given this impure foreigner tech in their upstream domain?

Or the French (according to what I can make out from your logic), handed everything over as a free lunch (and the detraction this then makes upon Indian acumen) and eternal handholding after it. But that is suddenly not the case now with jet engines?

Not even going to get into how the jet engine tech tree spread from the West into USSR and later China. Or you going to say everything was done by insular first principles by everyone with full reinventing of every bit of every wheel?

You are following a strange route of cake and eat it too w.r.t Indian acumen, wheel re-inventing time and the outside world in some zero sum way.

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised. I am assuming you are a big proponent that the only socio-economic-cultural constructs that are to be given prominence by any bully pulpit on hand.... belong exclusively and selectively to whichever ones originated by whichever exclusive and selective delineation and definition you assert in India. Correct? Otherwise there's some weakness, flaw and intrinsic mistrust that gets stuck with the other stuff....and we can't have that!...no matter the rational realised results to analyse.

Extreme social conservatism is the best basis correct?

 

[BhootPishash]

I mean was India wrong to take (what was on offer w.r.t) the Viking engine and convert it to Vikas and much more than that later?

What is your point ?

That Bus left station long back.

Viking Engines ? Shall we move to more blasphemous territory like Nuclear ?

What about CIRUS nuclear reactor from Canada ?

That was 1960 & 1970. It happened when it happened.

Would love to see something fruitful much RECENT apart from Turbo Shaft Shakti Engines. And this also because this is the position still not 100% Indigenous.

Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH)

The

www.globalsecurity.org

With 11% stack what we learned in this engine ???

Than Why we have program for HAL-HTSC-1200. Think about it.

Please Dont compare apples to oranges.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The trouble is that we have one specialist in advanced technology trying to make sense of what two others seem to have taken on board as holy scripture. This hardly makes for a good conversation. All that the sceptics have to say is that this example, or that example, might have yielded poor results because nobody transfers technology. That is difficult to justify. We have the live example of the Bofors howitzer in front of us.

Quite clearly, @Nilgiri is not inclined to debate his daily bread and butter with two speaking with such abstracted knowledge. It is doubtful that either has had any exposure to these transfer of technology situations.

A fruitless discussion.

 

[BhootPishash]

Maybe I shouldn't be surprised. I am assuming you are a big proponent that the only socio-economic-cultural constructs that are to be given prominence by any bully pulpit on hand.... belong exclusively and selectively to whichever ones originated by whichever exclusive and selective delineation and definition you assert in India. Correct? Otherwise there's some weakness, flaw and intrinsic mistrust that gets stuck with the other stuff....and we can't have that!...no matter the rational realised results to analyse.

What is this ???

Do refute on technical and logical basic.

What I understand from the above post is that you dont have any logical answer hence just name shame and move on.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What is this ???

Do refute on technical and logical basic.

What I understand from the above post is that you dont have any logical answer hence just name shame and move on.

There wasn't much technical content in your posts, other than to allege that joint ventures, and TOT agreements were bound to fail.

 

[BhootPishash]

All that the sceptics have to say is that this example, or that example, might have yielded poor results because nobody transfers technology. That is difficult to justify. We have the live example of the Bofors howitzer in front of us.

It is not about what is "might have yielded poor results because nobody transfers technology".

It is about what is at stake.

Nobody will transfer what they invested for decades of research and Billions of dollars with invested top technical man-hours in the cutting edge product. Niche technology Which only few in the world possess. Nobody want to create a competitor.

 

[nahtanbob]

The trouble is that we have one specialist in advanced technology trying to make sense of what two others seem to have taken on board as holy scripture. This hardly makes for a good conversation. All that the sceptics have to say is that this example, or that example, might have yielded poor results because nobody transfers technology. That is difficult to justify. We have the live example of the Bofors howitzer in front of us.

Quite clearly, @Nilgiri is not inclined to debate his daily bread and butter with two speaking with such abstracted knowledge. It is doubtful that either has had any exposure to these transfer of technology situations.

A fruitless discussion.

I agree with you. I do not think any of us are qualified to comment on intricacies of jet engine technology. Forgot about technology transfer.

From India's perspective a manufacturing line that produces as many F414 jet engines as India wants would suffice in the short to intermediate term

 

[BhootPishash]

There wasn't much technical content in your posts, other than to allege that joint ventures, and TOT agreements were bound to fail.

Would like to know what India-HAL learned in AL-31FP in Karaput.

And got implemented in Kaveri.

 

[onlinpunit]

There wasn't much technical content in your posts, other than to allege that joint ventures, and TOT agreements were bound to fail.

Going by the past history the assumption of @BhootPishash is not far from truth.
Only difference is he current political leadership and changed global scenario which may make some differences in the final outcome.

 

[onlinpunit]

Would like to know what India-HAL learned in AL-31FP in Karaput.

And got implemented in Kaveri.

They learned nothing because there was no penalty for not learning. Tighten the screw and the result will come.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Would like to know what India-HAL learned in AL-31FP in Karaput.

And got implemented in Kaveri.

Nothing.
The production plant there was the worst in HAL, and widely suspected in the IAF of having caused multiple pilot fatalities, due to very lax practices during maintenance, or even first cycle production.

That, by the way, was not connected to the Kaveri failure by GTRE. An organisation asked to model the technical drawings and check the clearances and tolerances found the most appalling mistakes in simple design. Even if the MiG people had sat down next to the GTRE engineers, nothing good would have come out of it.

The Russians didn't even offer English language manuals with their equipment.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Nobody will transfer what they invested for decades of research and Billions of dollars with invested top technical man-hours in the cutting edge product. Niche technology Which only few in the world possess. Nobody want to create a competitor.

I can assure you that is not true.

Heard of the glass cockpit?