From Absolutely Not to America Please?

[VCheng]

IK was not perfect and he made terrible political mistakes and I will be first one to say that.

I can agree with you on the above. IK made the mistakes. He now has to pay the price for them too. And that is the way it goes for everyone.

 

[Jango007]

I can agree with you on the above. IK made the mistakes. He now has to pay the price for them too. And that is the way it goes for everyone.

He should have paid price politically not thrown in jail on comical charges..........

Putting him in jail for bringing $1 B of ill gotten money back to Pakistan and depositing with the Supreme Court....or when was his wife's last period should not be the basis of any punishment.......

t's for the pleasure of GHQ which is busy fucking the whole country but pretending as if they are pure and clean like snow flakes.....

 

[VCheng]

He should have paid price politically not thrown in jail on comical charges..........

Putting him in jail for bringing $1 B of ill gotten money back to Pakistan and depositing with the Supreme Court....or when was his wife's last period should not be the basis of any punishment.......

t's for the pleasure of GHQ which is busy fucking the whole country but pretending as if they are pure and clean like snow flakes.....

I can also agree with you on the fact that the basic foundational error with the whole state of politics in Pakistan lies with the military's illegal usurpation of power that places it above the Constitution.

There is no denying that reality, 100%.

However, it is also equally clear that the military is now absolutely critical to Pakistan's survival, like it or not. And therefore, the path to correcting this basic error must be gradual and not revolutionary.

This situation took decades to develop, and it will also take decades to rectify, if we want to do so.

Thus far, there is no evidence that is the case.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

No, IK made that claim that the "order" came from America, and it was a LIE.

sorry I brought you into this thread

by inviting you I misdirected some PTI fire to yourself. I have been taking too much already and didn't want to be greedy so I was just looking for an opening to find a reason to invite you in this thread

you being you .. don't pull any punches and take all the heat with a smile.

after multiple pages of this thread. the theme is

what is a valid criticism on others
doesn't apply on Imran Khan

every objection to PTI seeking American support should be responded with whataboutism, personal insults and curses.


in a parallel universe though, where General Faiz is the COAS, we have PM Imran Khan and PTI fanbase is showering praise for the army and mocking PPP/ Noon league leaders in prison. they must be shocked to see how their PTI cousins in our reality are behaving.

A friend of mine (now retired) has last posted in Islamabad in a Abpara affiliated establishment .. he shares news of some leaders of PTI trying backdoor settlement for Imran while some others sabotaging those efforts. some of his stuff is just gossip based on what he talks about with his former colleague's and juniors but I do see a pattern that whenever there is a chance of Imran's release, suddenly some elements within PTI stir up a shit storm (mainly social media accounts operated from abroad).

 

[Jango007]

I can also agree with you on the fact that the basic foundational error with the whole state of politics in Pakistan lies with the military's illegal usurpation of power that places it above the Constitution.

There is no denying that reality, 100%.

However, it is also equally clear that the military is now absolutely critical to Pakistan's survival, like it or not. And therefore, the path to correcting this basic error must be gradual and not revolutionary.

This situation took decades to develop, and it will also take decades to rectify, if we want to do so.

Thus far, there is no evidence that is the case.

Now we can agree on something.

I was one of the biggest supporter of army and post 911 I defended and supported army blindly. Going as far as praising Gen Musharraf policies and even supporting Khalifa Mian saanp.

I hardly knew or cared about IK as he really existed as someone collecting money for his hospital.

Fast forward and came Gen Kayani......Pakistan fell into a downward spiral of violence while the idiot played golf and chain smoked..... Pakistan truly witnessed the lack of leadership under him. But as they say when you jump in the pool and hit the bottom only way left is to come up again.

I watched in disbelieve and horror as Pakistan continued to slide into a dark hole and most generals retired and moved outside Pakistan with their millions......including many landing here in Toronto. I had a misfortune of knowing a few bad apples.....But I must say I know a lot of good ex service members too...

While army/ politicians built their vast housing and commercial projects, country descended into chaos and the only thing Generals seemed to care was who will benefit them more Nawaz or Zardari.

That's when I started to pay attention to IK.

He provided an alternative to obscenely corrupt politicians that we are cursed with. True he came into power with the army's help and yes we were all fooled into thinking that "ARMY HAS NO BUSINESS IN POLITICS" generals successfully made him a failure too and not only that but by putting him in prison made him an example for everyone else who dare to criticize army or go against them.....

This is not what Pakistan should be like almost 80 years post independence where a BA pass Brigadier is richer and more power full than our professors and educated class.....where a Major's salary and perks are more than the computer engineer and where a captain can make the judge give orders according to his wish.

My dad who had a PhD in Metallurgical science, specializing in high strength alloys from North America, was mis treated by a Major who was appointed above him under Zia's martial law.
Imagine a person giving his services for almost free and coming back to Pakistan and helping Pakistan in the most critical field of high strength alloys is told by a 12 grade pass major that he will decide what he should be doing and how. My dad resigned before he could fire my dad.....

Pakistan is doomed until and unless army is forced to do what their oath and constitution require them to do. They have their dogs like Nawaz and Zardari represent democracy and the entire population is made to watch this drama......

If IK makes a deal with the army he will forsure sell his soul to the devil and will loose my respect. But again if he starts to become smart and join politically with other parties to bring about a change I see no harm in that.

 

[VCheng]

what is a valid criticism on others
doesn't apply on Imran Khan

It does not matter one bit to me.

The same thing is claimed by supporters of PMLN and PPP for their respective leaderships too. This is merely an indication of how politics in Pakistan has been reduced to cult worship of one chosen leader or another, that is all.

every objection to PTI seeking American support should be responded with whataboutism, personal insults and curses.

Again, it does not matter one bit to me. I have always said what I feel and think and know to be fair and true. Personal attacks do not bother me, for reality remains what it is, and never what we would like it to be, always.

If IK is released, or comes back to power with US interference, he will be no better than all those who have done the same. IK promised to never go to IMF either; we all know what happened there.

IK seeking US help begs these questions his supporters must answer first:

Why is he seeking help from those he previously claimed had him removed from power? Why would those who want him out of power help him get back in power now?

That can make sense only if IK and his followers admit that he LIED about his previous claims about USA, or that he is now willing to give them whatever they want in return for their help.

And IF that is true that IK lied, that makes him just another sleazeball lying to remain in power, or to get back in power, which is what this thread is really about.

in a parallel universe though, where General Faiz is the COAS, we have PM Imran Khan and PTI fanbase is showering praise for the army and mocking PPP/ Noon league leaders in prison. they must be shocked to see how their PTI cousins in our reality are behaving.

Even if that alternative reality had come to pass, the basic fact would have remain unchanged: IK was created and brought into power by the military, and he would have remained in power only with the help of the military. Whether it is one General or another, IK would have still remained the pawn he always was. And sooner or later, he would have outlived his usefulness once again.

The same cycle repeats, with new or suitably refreshed faces. That is the sad reality of politics in Pakistan.

 

[VCheng]

If IK makes a deal with the army he will forsure sell his soul to the devil and will loose my respect. But again if he starts to become smart and join politically with other parties to bring about a change I see no harm in that.

Let us see what happens next, and how IK decides to proceed.

 

[Baibers_1260]

@Baibers_1260

With shifting global alliances and the rise of our principal ally as a super power ,

Can we go back to 1991 please? Pakistan's ally (US) won the Cold War versus your fascist enemy states ally (USSR). How did the aftermath work out for you and your fascist enemy state?

Regards

1991-1992 was a pretty good year for us as we watched India to near economic collapse shipping 11 tons of gold to Lloyds Bank for collateral for loans to pay for its imports of fuel. India had just 3 months of foreign reserves left for its fuel purchases.
Other things we were pretty satisfied with the way things were going. ( Those WERE the days )

1. India was facing internal convulsions, a festering Sikh insurgency, Hindus being mercilessly butchered in trains and buses,
2. Vicious communal riots racking the nation with the Babri Masjid Ramjanambhoomi movement picking up steam,
3. Collapse of the Chandra Shekhar Singh government after 7 months. Couldn't even get the budget passed.
4. External reversals : The disastrous defeat of the Indian Army Navy and Air Force in Sri Lanka at the hands of their own protege the LTTE.
5. External reversals: India's loss of its important Arab ally Iraq in operation Desert Storm
6. External reversals: The collapse of the Soviet Union resulting in shortages of spares for defense equipment, reducing the availability of combat aircraft by 40%.
7. The assassination of Rajeev Gandhi that eliminated the last hope of the "pseudo-secularists" setting the stage firmly for India's slide into fascism.

Of course a year later the event that defined it all:



We would be very happy to see India slide further into fascism because by dialectical logic a fascist state reaches a "critical mass" ( like fission) before it implodes.

 

[imadul]

your oversimplified and selective recollection of history is very pleasing.
joining foreign hostile forces and conspiring against state has no other meaning. if in doubt check how Iranians, Saudis and Turks deal with such people.
and even with those who voice support for them via social media thinking they will remain anonymous forever.

PTI exposed itself after coming to power because it compromised itself for self interest and became no different to Noon league and PPP which sings the songs of "same page while in power" and become ideological when thrown out.

this PTI criticizes generals and political opponents over American appeasing and boot licking but its doing exactly the same in America.

O Bhai...
ان میں کیا کہوں

Can't write a 10 page thesis here.
Army has absolute control of Pakistan that is in itself a travesty.
I understand your pov, you accept army rule. There is no problem, everyone can have what they want.

Chasm in the your pov is army rule is illegal and unconstitutional according to PAKISTAN CONSTITUTION, doesn't matter what PTI, PPP, pmln, ji, tlp, good Taliban, do. Breaking law is crime.

Point is majority does not accept might is right even if they are weak.
PTI/IK same page was a blunder they are paying price, whole Pakistan paying price for Pakistan failure.
You know more than me where Pakistan stand in all the indices.

Also, one has to negotiate with the occupying forces, right? IK had to had adopted a political strategy after NC.

 

[dabbu]

That's some Bollywood material

Please enjoy a pirated copy soon.