India and China reach agreement on border patrolling along LAC

Status
Not open for further replies.
A good China - India relationship is massievly in the interests of both country's and plays against US/European plans of containing the rise of the East. If these two can trade properly and create a genuine common economic block it is game over for the US and Europe.
We are already trading extensively. Perhaps you are referring to trading intensively, meaning, with interaction between the two nation-wide production and manufacturing systems that lead to trade. There the obstacle is partly IP, partly supply chain sophistication combined with robustness, a very complex and very strong factor within China, that does not exist - yet - within India.

Here, Indian leadership and vision is entirely to blame.

What external observers have found on stripping down current Chinese manufactures, especially of EVs, is that extraordinary degree of fusion of engineering excellence with manufacturing competence - difficult to explain without a lot of hand-waving, but those who are involved with complex manufactures will immediately know what this is.

Chinese design is largely reverse engineering, but it allowed them to concentrate on manufacturing and on supply chain enhancement, in quantity but also in quality. It seems to the observer that in the advanced economies of the west, there is outstanding engineering ability but their capitalist system has actively sent out manufacturing to other locations, leading to a loss of opportunity to work on supply chains.

We have a massive opportunity here. We have the essentials of good engineering - although this may sound weird to other citizens from countries at an equal level of economic development, my own experience has been that when some idiot bureaucrat is not somehow involved in jamming up the process, Indian engineering is really superb.

We fail on supply chain.

Some of the larger manufacturers have got their own bits streamlined - somewhat - but that does not add up to a global level of availability and quality in supplying - meaning on time, on spec., and with buffers for rapid expansion (to some extent) or contraction (to some extent).
Pakistan would greatly benefit here too, China/India reapprochament will see China putting pressure on both India and Pak to resolve differences, for India that would mean much better regional connectivity to Mid East/Central Asia and for Pak obvious trade benefits.
Pakistan would benefit by getting rid of the millstone she insists on carrying around her neck.

It requires a purging on the military front. A sensitive issue, and let us keep away from it. It requires also a deep root-canal on the educational system; flogging that long-dead and currently very smelly carcasse of the hatefulness of the other will not work for Pakistan any more. It requires a third, a purging of the ubiquitous mullacracy. What happens in the name of religion, and especially in the name of blasphemy is utterly absurd. Now we have the disconcerting spectacle of Saudi Arabia being far ahead of Pakistan.

The brutally candid Pakistani civil society, with all its charm for democrats and liberals around the world, is not sufficient to let Pakistan float, forget about swimming gracefully or effectively.

There is nothing wrong with Pakistani talent. The few occasions I have had the opportunity to work with Pakistani kids (in IT services only), I found them on par with the Indian Punjabi or north Indian in general, but no match for the Ghati or the Golti, forget about the Tamilian or the Malloo, or even the Bongs.

They just need fair treatment, and a little relaxation for the religious foibles they have and can't help having after years of acculturation. This sounds condescending, but it is intended to be a real explanation of what the working manager needs to do to fit everyone into a smooth, well-oiled team.

On the larger perspective that has been mentioned above, there is no need for China or anybody else to put pressure. Once the major obstacles are gone, there is nothing stopping an avalanche-like expansion of business, and with that, of business opportunities. Afghanistan and Central Asia are fertile and fallow grounds for business growth driven by financial administration, commercial streamlining, and capital investment, it is to be hoped accompanied by education. After these are available, and national laws and fussiness ironed out, people just have to step out of the way.

But that is not going to happen. Too much is required of the Pakistani deep state to permit these to happen. Instead, there will be that very uncomfortable steady year-on-year degradation of capabilities and potential, until the Pashtun and the Baloch begin their middle game. That is when one Indian nightmare that has never seemed to be relevant might rear its ugly head - the prospect of a fraying Pakistan needing urgent support not to fall apart is a hair-raising one.
Just requires vision that current Pak and Indian leaders do not have
This is frankly so obvious. India is in free fall now, concealed by Chinese-style false reporting of statistical data, something that India took pride in maintaining at a high level just a few years, a little over a decade back. Her leadership is so stupid, so fundamentally incompetent, as to leave discerning Indian eyes filmed over with tears of exasperation. Imagine pushing a pro-Hindu, pro-Hindi agenda in a country with 20% Dalit opposed to this, with 17% Muslims murmuring the word 'Sabr' between tightly clenched teeth, and the entire south and east appalled at the smelly Gangetic Doab superstitions being foisted on the entire nation, along with the condescension of the CAP* constable asking people in southern airports if they are not Indian citizens, due to their not to be able to speak Hindi.

*Central Armed Police, ie, CRPF, CISF, BSF, SSB, Assam Rifles.

The Pakistani side is beyond my meagre powers of composition to deal with. India has a debt of fraternal duty to the Pakistani people, both as a country and as a people, and Ahsan Abrar and Wild Lens might show the Pakistani observer a thing or ten about how Indians (not from the jumped up idiots who are on Internet but the real thing) react to a stranger in their midst. That debt is something we can never pay, and it is emphatically not due to us.
 
Last edited:
We are already trading extensively. Perhaps you are referring to trading intensively, meaning, with interaction between the two nation-wide production and manufacturing systems that lead to trade. There the obstacle is partly IP, partly supply chain sophistication combined with robustness, a very complex and very strong factor within China, that does not exist - yet - within India.

Here, Indian leadership and vision is entirely to blame.

What external observers have found on stripping down current Chinese manufactures, especially of EVs, is that extraordinary degree of fusion of engineering excellence with manufacturing competence - difficult to explain without a lot of hand-waving, but those who are involved with complex manufactures will immediately know what this is.

Chinese design is largely reverse engineering, but it allowed them to concentrate on manufacturing and on supply chain enhancement, in quantity but also in quality. It seems to the observer that in the advanced economies of the west, there is outstanding engineering ability but their capitalist system has actively sent out manufacturing to other locations, leading to a loss of opportunity to work on supply chains.

We have a massive opportunity here. We have the essentials of good engineering - although this may sound weird to other citizens from countries at an equal level of economic development, my own experience has been that when some idiot bureaucrat is not somehow involved in jamming up the process, Indian engineering is really superb.

We fail on supply chain.

Some of the larger manufacturers have got their own bits streamlined - somewhat - but that does not add up to a global level of availability and quality in supplying - meaning on time, on spec., and with buffers for rapid expansion (to some extent) or contraction (to some extent).

Pakistan would benefit by getting rid of the millstone she insists on carrying around her neck.

It requires a purging on the military front. A sensitive issue, and let us keep away from it. It requires also a deep root-canal on the educational system; flogging that long-dead and currently very smelly carcasse of the hatefulness of the other will not work for Pakistan any more. It requires a third, a purging of the ubiquitous mullacracy. What happens in the name of religion, and especially in the name of blasphemy is utterly absurd. Now we have the disconcerting spectacle of Saudi Arabia being far ahead of Pakistan.

The brutally candid Pakistani civil society, with all its charm for democrats and liberals around the world, is not sufficient to let Pakistan float, forget about swimming gracefully or effectively.

There is nothing wrong with Pakistani talent. The few occasions I have had the opportunity to work with Pakistani kids (in IT services only), I found them on par with the Indian Punjabi or north Indian in general, but no match for the Ghati or the Golti, forget about the Tamilian or the Malloo, or even the Bongs.

They just need fair treatment, and a little relaxation for the religious foibles they have and can't help having after years of acculturation. This sounds condescending, but it is intended to be a real explanation of what the working manager needs to do to fit everyone into a smooth, well-oiled team.

On the larger perspective that has been mentioned above, there is no need for China or anybody else to put pressure. Once the major obstacles are gone, there is nothing stopping an avalanche-like expansion of business, and with that, of business opportunities. Afghanistan and Central Asia are fertile and fallow grounds for business growth driven by financial administration, commercial streamlining, and capital investment, it is to be hoped accompanied by education. After these are available, and national laws and fussiness ironed out, people just have to step out of the way.

But that is not going to happen. Too much is required of the Pakistani deep state to permit these to happen. Instead, there will be that very uncomfortable steady year-on-year degradation of capabilities and potential, until the Pashtun and the Baloch begin their middle game. That is when one Indian nightmare that has never seemed to be relevant might rear its ugly head - the prospect of a fraying Pakistan needing urgent support not to fall apart is a hair-raising one.

This is frankly so obvious. India is in free fall now, concealed by Chinese-style false reporting of statistical data, something that India took pride in maintaining at a high level just a few years, a little over a decade back. Her leadership is so stupid, so fundamentally incompetent, as to leave discerning Indian eyes filmed over with tears of exasperation. Imagine pushing a pro-Hindu, pro-Hindi agenda in a country with 20% Dalit opposed to this, with 17% Muslims murmuring the word 'Sabr' between tightly clenched teeth, and the entire south and east appalled at the smelly Gangetic Doab superstitions being foisted on the entire nation, along with the condescension of the CAP* constable asking people in southern airports if they are not Indian citizens, due to their not to be able to speak Hindi.

*Central Armed Police, ie, CRPF, CISF, BSF, SSB, Assam Rifles.

The Pakistani side is beyond my meagre powers of composition to deal with. India has a debt of fraternal duty to the Pakistani people, both as a country and as a people, and Ahsan Abrar and Wild Lens might show the Pakistani observer a thing or ten about how Indians (not from the jumped up idiots who are on Internet but the real thing) react to a stranger in their midst. That debt is something we can never pay, and it is emphatically not due to us.
Joe, just a few quick points, intentionally direct as I can't match your detail now

- it's not just china that will demand Pak India become functional, the region will, for the sake of the region. Don't you think that this is a wonderful notion and change in history, that Asians can influence Asians for their economic connection and tranquility, not go via the west

-you pivot to Chinese manufacturing...well I think that's an outdated slight on Chinese ingenuity, they have moved beyond reverse engineering and due to their human development they have more high iq people than the USA , that's not ingenuity but potential capability

What you are really trying to say is India cannot join, or will not join a Chinese based technological order, this is on the premise that nations have two options, you go with one or the other for a lot of needs

What you also might be saying is you want India to have the best of both worlds, indefinitely.

This is the most difficult balance, India is far far away from being an independent actor, yet choices....

I think a choice will have to be made, there are also forces willing to make that choice for Indians.

There will also be forces that try to limit your options, or potential fertilie grounds as you say, if you are or are not signalling in their favour


As for Pakistan, lol, they are a second order consideration in this, Pakistan cannot have India, china and Russia on the same page and not also play nice
 
it's not just china that will demand Pak India become functional, the region will, for the sake of the region. Don't you think that this is a wonderful notion and change in history, that Asians can influence Asians for their economic connection and tranquility, not go via the west
Totally agree.

you pivot to Chinese manufacturing...well I think that's an outdated slight on Chinese ingenuity, they have moved beyond reverse engineering and due to their human development they have more high iq people than the USA , that's not ingenuity but potential capability
None of their high-tech copies seem to work the way they should. That is all. I would endorse the use of Chinese manufactured articles with no hesitation, but I was trying to analyse the nature of Chinese success, not denigrate it.

What you are really trying to say is India cannot join, or will not join a Chinese based technological order, this is on the premise that nations have two options, you go with one or the other for a lot of needs
Nope.

Not at all. I was merely saying that India can be an equal trading partner, and trade can rise to greater heights, but only once it goes beyond buying finished products from the Chinese without being able to absorb them in our own manufacturing system.

The two manufacturing systems have to be interactive, to grow further.

What you also might be saying is you want India to have the best of both worlds, indefinitely.
Of course I do, but I am not at all sure what in my post conveyed this to the detriment of other, more significant points. However.....

I think a choice will have to be made, there are also forces willing to make that choice for Indians.
Very unlikely.

I am aware of your model of a world manipulated by one or two superpowers at a time, and the rest of the world being their puppets, but cannot agree. The facts are against it, and there is only a vast cloud of suspicion that might support that model.

There will also be forces that try to limit your options, or potential fertilie grounds as you say, if you are or are not signalling in their favour
<sigh>

The US is a spent force.

As for Pakistan, lol, they are a second order consideration in this, Pakistan cannot have India, china and Russia on the same page and not also play nice
I felt this point deserved mention, rather than leave the whole thing to boil down to India and China.
 
@Joe Shearer

Sir , IF China is interested in Rapprochement with India , it is because of Two Reasons

1 It Realised that Using Pakistan card to contain India is NOT working for various reasons

2 It realised the futility of a Conflict with India for that Terrible Terrain in Ladakh

What they would gain is some cold deserts and salt flats and loose Thousands of soldiers

China has also seen that in the Last four Years , India's military position has only improved steadily

This Stand off actually helped India a lot , first to upgrade Infrastructure on a war footing
AND also to modernize its forces along with Rebalancing the Army from being Pakistan focused

We.have also inducted new platforms.,.Weapon systems and technologies because of this stand off
 
Last edited:
@Joe Shearer

Sir , IF China is interested in Rapprochement with India , it is because of Two Reasons

1 It Realised that Using Pakistan card to contain India is NOT working for various reasons

2 It realised the futility of a Conflict with India for that Terrible Terrain in Ladakh

What they would gain is some cold deserts and salt flats and loose Thousands of soldiers

China has also seen that in the Last four Years , India's military position has only improved steadily

This Stand off helped India a lot
These are distinct possibilities. We need more information, never easy when dealing with the opaque Chinese regime.
 
Having said you agreed with my initial point and sentiment you then disagreed with everything else 😂😂

You don't rate Huawei?or polar...
But then I agree, the USA and West are still generally much ahead in other places, but you don't get access without allegiance


Before considering deeper integration with china in manufacturing you need to decide your alignment, the USA will demand the same. India does not have enough time to wait for indigenisation and the USA is far from being considered spent right now, a wounded animal is no danger, nope the opposite


I think recent history supports two camps model, you had communism or western capitalism

You had George Bush you are with us or against us wot

Who remained unaffected?

We look to be moving into an east Vs west dichotomy........oh yes we are Joe, I could write much more, it's not only a sterile mechanical discussion on supply chains and chips, it's about your societies value systems (something I am sure you ponder), a russian spokesperson on Indian TV was it pains to emphasise this aspect to BRICS, the shared value.... of having actual values you want to preserve.
 
A good China - India relationship is massievly in the interests of both country's and plays against US/European plans of containing the rise of the East. If these two can trade properly and create a genuine common economic block it is game over for the US and Europe.

Pakistan would greatly benefit here too, China/India reapprochament will see China putting pressure on both India and Pak to resolve differences, for India that would mean much better regional connectivity to Mid East/Central Asia and for Pak obvious trade benefits.

Just requires vision that current Pak and Indian leaders do not have

Unfortunate that you need a giant to push Indian and Pakistan to act wise.

If we can do it on our own, and for our own interests, that will push giants to act the way we would like them to be.
 
@Joe Shearer

Sir , IF China is interested in Rapprochement with India , it is because of Two Reasons

1 It Realised that Using Pakistan card to contain India is NOT working for various reasons

2 It realised the futility of a Conflict with India for that Terrible Terrain in Ladakh

What they would gain is some cold deserts and salt flats and loose Thousands of soldiers

China has also seen that in the Last four Years , India's military position has only improved steadily

This Stand off actually helped India a lot , first to upgrade Infrastructure on a war footing
AND also to modernize its forces along with Rebalancing the Army from being Pakistan focused

We.have also inducted new platforms.,.Weapon systems and technologies because of this stand off


Or none of these

China and Russia, not just china, want a regional consensus to be formed that consolidates their security


As long as this delicate balancing game that India projects of we talk to everyone, we trade with everyone we want to love everyone etc etc then China and USA will both maintain an approach of stick and carrot just because it's good obvious common sense
 
Unfortunate that you need a giant to push Indian and Pakistan to act wise.

If we can do it on our own, and for our own interests, that will push giants to act the way we would like them to be.


In reality, maturity is rarely visible between the two, as is wisdom

Regional nudging might work.
 
Or none of these

China and Russia, not just china, want a regional consensus to be formed that consolidates their security


As long as this delicate balancing game that India projects of we talk to everyone, we trade with everyone we want to love everyone etc etc then China and USA will both maintain an approach of stick and carrot just because it's good obvious common sense

What works on the Ground are TWO factors
1 Militarily a Concept called Dissuasive Deterrence, which India is well on its way to achieve vis a vis China

2 Convergence of Economic interests

India China Trade is already big
What is missing is investment , which can also happen with Peace on the borders

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
What works on the Ground are TWO factors
1 Militarily a Concept called Dissuasive Deterrence, which India is well on its way to achieve vis a vis China

2 Convergence of Economic interests

India China Trade is already big
What is missing is investment , which can also happen with Peace on the borders

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.



The concept of trust between major nations that are also rivals is a kind of infantile idea


What creates the closest thing to trust is alignment on as much as possible, across many many spheres

trade is not worth what you think it is, it's not stopped us china, or china India thinking and planning war


Russia and china are clearly trying to create their own world system, moving away from the dollar and Western values, as discussed in BRICS

So the question is posed to india, do you seek a better position in the existing order, an Anglo Saxon dominated order that you are well aware of historically, or be part of a new Asian order and be willing to push it through at some cost
 
@Joe Shearer @Yasser76 @r3alist and others, just FYI

 
What works on the Ground are TWO factors
1 Militarily a Concept called Dissuasive Deterrence, which India is well on its way to achieve vis a vis China

2 Convergence of Economic interests

India China Trade is already big
What is missing is investment , which can also happen with Peace on the borders

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.



This was a fairly honest outline I think and similar to what i have been suggestion on challenges posed

It might come across better than what I say, but anyone thoughts are welcome

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
The concept of trust between major nations that are also rivals is a kind of infantile idea


What creates the closest thing to trust is alignment on as much as possible, across many many spheres

trade is not worth what you think it is, it's not stopped us china, or china India thinking and planning war


Russia and china are clearly trying to create their own world system, moving away from the dollar and Western values, as discussed in BRICS

So the question is posed to india, do you seek a better position in the existing order, an Anglo Saxon dominated order that you are well aware of historically, or be part of a new Asian order and be willing to push it through at some cost

There is No such thing as New World Order or Asian order

All countries are selfish

And just try to get favourable deals ,opportunities and agreements whereever possible

That is why Europe is still buying Russian oil and Gas

And US will also Soon Dump Ukraine and start trading with Russia

US knows when to cut its losses and run , like they did in Afghanistan
 
In reality, maturity is rarely visible between the two, as is wisdom

Regional nudging might work.

Regional nudging can work both ways, seldom they nudge for "positive".

We own are own fortune, make it or break it. Third party will make their own. You cant let the key given to others and think they will play fair.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Pakistan Defence Latest

Latest Posts

Back
Top