India to develop with France engine for desi stealth fighter

[Michael]

Already said, it was the reason we are not buying engine from UK and USA.
Read the another engine deal with USA, already buying bunch of engines.
Why do you think - not buying for them? Instead going for france?

To date, France does not have a stealth fighter, let alone the 4th-generation turbofan engine required for a 5th-generation fighter.
To date, France's most advanced fighter is the Rafale. Its most advanced turbofan engine is the M88 series turbofan, a 3rd-generation engine.

To date, India lacks a complete metallurgical industry. Even the most basic blast furnace technology still needs to be imported from China. As for precision machining and materials science, India is completely blank in these areas.

So, how can India, combined with France, produce a state-of-the-art 120kN turbofan engine for a 5th-generation fighter?

So I completely understand. You have no idea how difficult it is to manufacture a modern turbofan engine 100% locally. In fact, when France manufactures the M88 engine, it needs to import many raw materials and components. They do not produce these things themselves.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

You have been misled by the Indian media.

China's turbofan engine development started in 1963, and the supporting basic industrial system started at the same time. China has invested more than 100 billion dollars and a lot of time and manpower in this field, which is not something that can be done by just saying “reverse engineering”.

The medium-thrust engine that India wanted from France was similar in performance to the WS-9, and China acquired the MK202 technology from the UK at the time, and even with full technology transfer, it took 28 years (1975-2003) for full localization to be completed.

You are far underestimating the technical difficulty of aero engines.

Sir that's your version but widely known by everyone that WS 9 is a clone copy of Russian RD-93 turbofan.

 

[iblini]

Sir that's your version but widely known by everyone that WS 9 is a clone copy of Russian RD-93 turbofan.

There you go, sometimes a loud face slap is needed to a kiddo for him to grow up.

WS-9 Qinling
Chinese license-produced version of the RB.168 Mk.202 manufactured by the Xi'an Aero-Engine Corporation, which was exported in 1975 violating the COCOM restrictions.[12] It was used to power the Xian JH-7 and JH-7A.[13] An improved WS-9A developing 97 kilonewtons (22,000 lbf) of thrust is reportedly in development.[13]

 

[MH.Yang]

India has already learned its lesson with the Russian AL-31FP engine. Yes, HAL manufactures about 75% of it locally, but the critical 25%—turbine blades, single-crystal alloys, thermal coatings, FADEC software—was never transferred. That dependency remains a strategic vulnerability.

This is exactly why India didn’t go with the U.S. or U.K. for the AMCA engine deal. If Washington or London were truly willing to share 100% of the technology, there would have been no chance for France to step in. But the U.S. and U.K. were clear: no complete transfer.

At the same time, India is still buying U.S. engines—like the GE F404/F414—for the Tejas Mk1A and Mk2. That makes sense for production timelines. But those are purchases, not a foundation for self-reliance.

With France, the condition was non-negotiable from day one: 100% transfer of technology. Safran agreed, and that’s why this deal matters. it’s about ensuring that for the next generation, India owns the technology end-to-end and never repeats the Russian engine experience.

The development of science and technology is like building a skyscraper; you can't just go ahead and build the top floor without building the foundation and the lower floors.

For example, if you want to industrialize the manufacture of penicillin, then you need to have the pre-technology of hygromycin and sulfanilamide, which in turn require pre-technology such as microscopes and purification equipment, followed by pre-technology such as glass, lathes, and metal smelting technology.

This is true of any technology, the higher end the technology the more pre-techs there are, and the aero-engine is one of the pinnacles of human technology. India and other countries do not have a perfect industrial system, industrial strength is weak, in many areas are in the blank stage. It is unrealistic for you to want to completely localize the aero-engine, and you will inevitably end up importing parts for assembly. The aero-engine thus manufactured is likely to be more expensive than a direct import.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

There you go, sometimes a loud face slap is needed to a kiddo for him to grow up.

WS-9 Qinling
Chinese license-produced version of the RB.168 Mk.202 manufactured by the Xi'an Aero-Engine Corporation, which was exported in 1975 violating the COCOM restrictions.[12] It was used to power the Xian JH-7 and JH-7A.[13] An improved WS-9A developing 97 kilonewtons (22,000 lbf) of thrust is reportedly in development.[13]

My Bad i meant - RD-93 engines to WS-13

 

[MH.Yang]

Sir that's your version but widely known by everyone that WS 9 is a clone copy of Russian RD-93 turbofan.

WS-9 is British technology, not Russian. Of course, China also bought Russian engine technology.

Not only UK and Russia, but China has also bought engine technology from US, Germany, France, Japan and other countries. China's engine technology is based on the fusion of technology from many industrial powers. If you only see one RD-93, then you are overestimating China's capability.

 

[BonPlan]

If you worked for Dassault, no wonder they started falling like little birds all over the indian countryside what did you do at Dassault, make the coffee?

---

Coffee is your specialty. I'll leave it to you.

 

[iblini]

My Bad i meant - RD-93 engines to WS-13

So your replied to Yang has all fallen apart, alone with all these fantasy, downplay everything that coming out from China which somehow makes you feel better.
raj boy, better close your eyes and have a long sleep for like at least 15-20 years, then something might happened to IAF, now you are just wasting everyone's time.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

The development of science and technology is like building a skyscraper; you can't just go ahead and build the top floor without building the foundation and the lower floors.

For example, if you want to industrialize the manufacture of penicillin, then you need to have the pre-technology of hygromycin and sulfanilamide, which in turn require pre-technology such as microscopes and purification equipment, followed by pre-technology such as glass, lathes, and metal smelting technology.

This is true of any technology, the higher end the technology the more pre-techs there are, and the aero-engine is one of the pinnacles of human technology. India and other countries do not have a perfect industrial system, industrial strength is weak, in many areas are in the blank stage. It is unrealistic for you to want to completely localize the aero-engine, and you will inevitably end up importing parts for assembly. The aero-engine thus manufactured is likely to be more expensive than a direct import.

Completely agreed! However, two important points often get overlooked:

India has been working on its own engine programs for decades. We already have significant experience with turbine blades and related technologies. The real challenge lies in the core technology, where India has not yet achieved full maturity.

India already manufactures several components of aircraft engines, though the most critical core parts and advanced technologies are still not reach.

So, to put it simply — India has long been trying to achieve this goal on its own but has not fully succeeded. That is why a partnership with France makes sense.

It’s not that India suddenly woke up today and decided to build an aircraft engine. The country has been engaged in this effort for decades. The difference now is that with a Technology Transfer (ToT) agreement, India can bridge the gap. Once the core technology is available, India should have little difficulty in adopting and advancing it, since it is not a new player but a long-time participant in this domain.

 

[MH.Yang]

Completely agreed! However, two important points often get overlooked:

India has been working on its own engine programs for decades. We already have significant experience with turbine blades and related technologies. The real challenge lies in the core technology, where India has not yet achieved full maturity.

India already manufactures several components of aircraft engines, though the most critical core parts and advanced technologies are still not reach.

So, to put it simply — India has long been trying to achieve this goal on its own but has not fully succeeded. That is why a partnership with France makes sense.

It’s not that India suddenly woke up today and decided to build an aircraft engine. The country has been engaged in this effort for decades. The difference now is that with a Technology Transfer (ToT) agreement, India can bridge the gap. Once the core technology is available, India should have little difficulty in adopting and advancing it, since it is not a new player but a long-time participant in this domain.

India's plan to work with France on a turbofan engine certainly makes sense. And the Indian government's goal is more realistic, it is only a medium thrust engine. It's much easier than the high thrust engine Turkey wants to develop.

My point is not that I think the plan is ridiculous or that it is impossible to realize. I'm just saying that it can't be fully localized like you think it can be, and that India lacks the front-end tech for it to be anything more than an assembled product. Of course, it will have some parts localized.

Ultimately, it will likely be more expensive to have it assembled in India than to buy it directly from France. It does not have the cost effect that you claim.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

WS-9 is British technology, not Russian. Of course, China also bought Russian engine technology.

Not only UK and Russia, but China has also bought engine technology from US, Germany, France, Japan and other countries. China's engine technology is based on the fusion of technology from many industrial powers. If you only see one RD-93, then you are overestimating China's capability.

I give China the respect it deserves. They learned, and learning very fast.

I personally rate China very highly for what they are doing and what they have already achieved.

You won’t usually find me going around trolling everywhere in Chinese-posted threads about their achievements. But whenever it comes to India, I often see people showing up just to troll.

We mostly know the history of Chinese manufacturing, including for the military. I only respond when someone comes into Indian threads, starts showing off, and tries to insult India.

 

[RajaBaja]

This kind of talk is like opium. It's enough to get someone high for a while, then they fall silent again...

After a while, they take another puff of opium...

And the cycle repeats.

A few years later, they will once again usher in a 6:0

This thread gives us "ACCURATE" AMCA combat ready timeline by assessing Tejas and Kaveri projects. AMCA first flight on Jan 1, 2055

 

[TopGun786]

Because we don't know if this Rafale was downed by a PL-15. A friendly fire, so close to its base, is possible (I know for the pakistani pride that it is not your prefered option.... isn't it my dear stud @Yasser76 ?)
Spectra was maybe damaged, or suffering a break down, or short on flares, or simply not fitted with the PL-15 seeker signature (to explain why it is so usefull to have some PL-15 seekers under the indian and west hands).
Spectra was maybe shut off, as so near its air base, not to interfere with local air defense?

There are many options, and not only the one fantasmed by some forumers.

You are again out of mind due to drinking some very nasty liquid..... Cow cola?
You yourself don't know what you are talking about.
That Rafale stories you are inventing don't even fit in your bollywood script.

 

[TopGun786]

Sure I understand nothing to Rafale after working some years in a Dassault factory.

So that was the reason four IAF Rafales were fell out of the sky in May?
You didn't fastened those screws well
Very unprofessional behavior Rakesh!!!
You should have use a new "wrench".

 

[TopGun786]

India has already learned its lesson with the Russian AL-31FP engine. Yes, HAL manufactures about 75% of it locally, but the critical 25%—turbine blades, single-crystal alloys, thermal coatings, FADEC software—was never transferred. That dependency remains a strategic vulnerability.

This is exactly why India didn’t go with the U.S. or U.K. for the AMCA engine deal. If Washington or London were truly willing to share 100% of the technology, there would have been no chance for France to step in. But the U.S. and U.K. were clear: no complete transfer.

At the same time, India is still buying U.S. engines—like the GE F404/F414—for the Tejas Mk1A and Mk2. That makes sense for production timelines. But those are purchases, not a foundation for self-reliance.

With France, the condition was non-negotiable from day one: 100% transfer of technology. Safran agreed, and that’s why this deal matters. it’s about ensuring that for the next generation, India owns the technology end-to-end and never repeats the Russian engine experience.

I must admit your knowledge about jet engine technology is very limited. You have to remove the veil of deliberate ignorance and bias about certain countries and then perhaps you are able to learn something.