Indian IBGs - Recent Quwa+ article

hmuham8

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I recently read the Quwa+ article on Indian IBGs and while I understand the premise, I would like to offer an alternate opinion.

The Indian Integrated Battle groups are a larger counterpart, conceptually, to the Russian Battalion Tactical groups i.e. high readiness forces of a Reinforced battalion size w/ integrated Electronic warfare, armor and fire support that can act as the basic maneuver formation capable of operating independently w/o additional outside support but still being able to work w/ other BTGs for larger objectives.

The issue that the Russian military discovered in Ukraine was that the BTGs were simply too small to achieve significant objectives and did not have enough organic logistics to support heavy operations past 48-72 hours. Additionally, due to the structure of these BTGs, once a BTG was "spent", it was a time consuming and intensive process to regenerate these forces because the personnel manning non-infantry roles required years of training that could not be easily replaced. This is still taking into consideration the fact that the Russian military had considerable surprise in the initial days of its invasion of Ukraine.Once these BTGs ran into Ukrainian brigades piecemeal, they were defeated in detail rather than being able to aggregate combat mass and effects. Furthermore, since the BTGs were meant to operate independently, they could not easily call on the "heavier" assets that would usually rely at high echelons of the force structure. The Russian General staff could certainly have utilized the BTGs more effectively but the structure of these forces was also not conducive to sustained combat operations. The proof here is the fact that the Russian ground forces have now switched to the traditional Corps and Division structure.

The challenge on the subcontinent is that India and Pakistan have largely had a stationary border on the eastern front. Both militaries have substantial arsenals and have considerable knowledge of any avenues of approach that the attacker would take i.e. most approaches already have pre-planned fires dedicated to them w/ those assets already in position. Additionally, due to the nature of its geography, Pakistan's highest readiness assets are able to deploy within the 72 hour timeframe that Indian IBGs would try to exploit.These IBGs are likely to be able to make initial gains. However, once the initial surprise is over, the inherent weakness of the force structure is likely to show itself. While the Indian IBG is larger than the Russian BTG, the reality remains that ~5k troops is not enough to get into sustained combat operations that taking and holding chunks of strategically significant territory would require. This is even more important as the premise of the Indian IBG is to force Pakistani concessions by holding such territory.

That still leaves the Intellectual question of whether Pakistan should try to match India in the deployment of high readiness forces that can be activated quickly. Here, Pakistan should try to focus on limited objectives that it wants to achieve once hostilities have been initiated. These are likely to be the desire to create favorable territorial outcomes and secure its water resources. Both of these objectives can be achieved through tighter integration between the ARFC, PAF and Ground forces rather than raising entirely new assets that Pakistan would have to balance against its limited resources and fiscal capacity. Pakistan should focus on magazine depth for critical munitions, regular integrated and realistic training, competent staff work and its high-refresh ISR stack (Things that it is already focusing on).
 
They have been "reorganising" into IBGs for last 20 years. Every new chief comes in, moves the chess set around the living room then leaves claiming "Major reorganisation"

All they do is rename units of paper and shuffle things around.

Indian Armed forces are still plagued by massive levels of disjointness, duplication and very old equipment in the army

Quick moving tanks where relevant 20 years ago, modern war has changed that, big armour formations can never have the element of suprise anymore
 
They have been "reorganising" into IBGs for last 20 years. Every new chief comes in, moves the chess set around the living room then leaves claiming "Major reorganisation"

All they do is rename units of paper and shuffle things around.

Indian Armed forces are still plagued by massive levels of disjointness, duplication and very old equipment in the army

Quick moving tanks where relevant 20 years ago, modern war has changed that, big armour formations can never have the element of suprise anymore
They lost 1,800 military personal during the 2001-2002 military stand-off without Pakistan firing a single shot at them.

Then eventually retreated after Pakistan carried out a series of ballistic missiles tests.
 
They lost 1,800 military personal during the 2001-2002 military stand-off with Pakistan without Pakistan firing a single shot at them.

Then eventually retreated after Pakistan carried out a series of ballistic missiles tests.

One has to remember basic facts here. Quwa sometimes drinks the Indian Kool Aid.

You have a 1 million man army with only 3,000 off IFVs/APCs (Pak has half the number of men but about 50% more APCs) Simple maths shows you will be very limited in the mobility of these "IBG"s. This is not 4-5 heavy armoured/mech divisions racing across the desert, Even in SPHs they have the new K-9 but are behind Pakistan in numbers.

If anything, and if Pak rerogansied its heavy armour, APCs and SPHs into IBGs we could not only put more on the board then India, but each one would likely have it's own SPH battalion. India cannot do that.
 
One has to remember basic facts here. Quwa sometimes drinks the Indian Kool Aid.

You have a 1 million man army with only 3,000 off IFVs/APCs (Pak has half the number of men but about 50% more APCs) Simple maths shows you will be very limited in the mobility of these "IBG"s. This is not 4-5 heavy armoured/mech divisions racing across the desert, Even in SPHs they have the new K-9 but are behind Pakistan in numbers.

If anything, and if Pak rerogansied its heavy armour, APCs and SPHs into IBGs we could not only put more on the board then India, but each one would likely have it's own SPH battalion. India cannot do that.
I would , politely, disagree about Quwa. I obviously disagree on this particular topic but their analysis is the only serious, consistent, reasonable and defensible analysis on either the Indian or the Pakistan side.

That said, i would point out that the PA having more IFVs and Armor would also place significantly heavier logistics constraints on its "IBGs". These formations could not operate as far from its bases as the Indian counterpart. I think you'd be surprised at the amount of fuel, ammunition and supplies that heavy armor requires.

Pakistan's investment in IFVs is really smart because protected mobility in the age of FPV drones and loitering munitions is incredibly valuable for sustained operations
 
I would , politely, disagree about Quwa. I obviously disagree on this particular topic but their analysis is the only serious, consistent, reasonable and defensible analysis on either the Indian or the Pakistan side.

That said, i would point out that the PA having more IFVs and Armor would also place significantly heavier logistics constraints on its "IBGs". These formations could not operate as far from its bases as the Indian counterpart. I think you'd be surprised at the amount of fuel, ammunition and supplies that heavy armor requires.

Pakistan's investment in IFVs is really smart because protected mobility in the age of FPV drones and loitering munitions is incredibly valuable for sustained operations

Well lets disagree, Quwa do get sone things right, they also get a lot wrong, but not for this thread.

Pakistan's supply likes would, by default, be much shorter then Indias. The cost, manpower, transport and fuel per 155mm round to get to the front line would be much lower on the Pakistan side. Also the planning assumptions for much of these IBGs are very outdated. They relied on Indian air superiority for one thing. We know that is no longer assured. Drones have also changed the nature of the game massively, from mass small quadcopters that carry a small munition dropped on the top of tanks to Akincis that can hunt down IBGs at their forming up points.

As I said earlier, I think this is a PR exercise the Indian Army does every 3 years to make the Chief look like he is implementing change. Very little seems to happen on the ground
 
They have been "reorganising" into IBGs for last 20 years. Every new chief comes in, moves the chess set around the living room then leaves claiming "Major reorganisation"

All they do is rename units of paper and shuffle things around.

Indian Armed forces are still plagued by massive levels of disjointness, duplication and very old equipment in the army

Quick moving tanks where relevant 20 years ago, modern war has changed that, big armour formations can never have the element of suprise anymore
Entire Indian army is too big so they have been trying to convert a smaller portion into an offensive force for quick limited operations against Pakistan. But now as u said, modern battlefield has changed, I don't know how relevant is tank warfare nowadays with drones buzzing around
 
Entire Indian army is too big so they have been trying to convert a smaller portion into an offensive force for quick limited operations against Pakistan. But now as u said, modern battlefield has changed, I don't know how relevant is tank warfare nowadays with drones buzzing around

Exactly. Also really interesting in the proximity of railways for Pakistan near central Pak border (where much of the desert fighting may accour), compare that to Indian side. We even have a single gauge line going all the way to Fort Abbas. That means tanks, water, ammo and fuel can be shipped almost directly to frontline units

Pakistan

1783433585709.png


Indian

1783433687336.png
 
Seems like an outdated concept. Future armed conflict will be through proxies or drones, missiles, naval and air power. If one side achieves such overwhelming dominance in other domains that the army can safely conduct offenseive manoeuvres in enemy territory, it would not matter how big or integrated the battle unit is.
 
Seems like an outdated concept. Future armed conflict will be through proxies or drones, missiles, naval and air power. If one side achieves such overwhelming dominance in other domains that the army can safely conduct offenseive manoeuvres in enemy territory, it would not matter how big or integrated the battle unit is.

Yes, dont get me wrong, you still need infantry to take and hold ground, a drone cannot do that, but as Israel is finding out in Lebanon, days of sending in the tanks and APCS alone are over....
 

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