Indus Valley Civilisation is largest source of ancestry for South Asians

[ST1976]

No derived from Indus river.

thanks

 

[Nilgiri]

Easily the data could be handed over to AI to exponentially boost data analysis - but not a priority nor is archeology anymore a viable profession for anyone living in Pakistan at least.

While I am all for the debate/chat it (concept of "Ancient Pakistan") may at least spur in some broader way for Pakistanis to look into deeper arc of history concerning them....and putting aside the intrinsic problem of trying to short circuit the attested chronology of tribal/society identities and polities (simply using current nationstate name) ....there first needs to be lot of crucial steps that need demonstrable establishment and inertia in Pakistan's thinking especially regd those with sufficient power and influence.

i.e proof of pudding is in the eating.

A) if pre-Zia curriculum (regd Pakistan's heritage) is not achieved in a reset after he is gone, why is it not done so? It was that easy for something ilke this to catch and perpetuate?

B) if sufficient work, organisation and attention is not given to protecting and preserving the critical sites of interest found so far, whats point of exploring for more?

C) Proper grappling of what is the overall process needed to properly embed Pakistan into larger arc of the history of region it occupies and the Pakistani people themselves?

These are to reckon with the status quo of Pakistan asserted as zero sum definition wielded by elitists for their current narrow purposes it seems.

They have been able to make this disjointed and narrow as possible (for their own expedience and privileged insularity) in first place...Pakistan larger society also coerced into it and/or goes along with it or apathetic to it to large degrees.

It is unique distillation of problem that makes all kind of domains hard to bridge (be it historical study, economic study, sociopolitical study and all their applications for development and better understanding).

This thing that partition set in and Pakistan political elite entrenched further for their power trapping.

The attempted short circuiting past this in online circles (like I see all across this forum and fora in general) come off as frivolous pursuit to me in end. The best bits that may be generated from it (at their rare rates) are supposed to have meaningful realised impact or a decent chance of such, otherwise whats the point of too much debate for debate sake.

It is what upsets folks like you and @VCheng and number of others, because you have a greater understanding of how large parts of world get on with this in far better way....with far less of skewed lens and air gapping in play by power grouping perched and comfy....that dont want other parts of Pakistan to flower, seeing that as a threat to themselves. The larger masses should just make do and keep their heads down. That zero sum thinking. Then what are the larger masses to do about it? Reconcile best they can....and then we say everyone gets the leaders they deserve.

The proper hedging and allocation of things to their domain experts cohesively, professionally and structurally, without zero-sum fear on political privilege, narrative, ideology and so on....this has very little traction in Pakistan now, is it stuck that way?

 

[Nilgiri]

Even with the odds arrayed against it, as badly funded and squelched this domain is like so many other domains in Pakistan....

Pakistan springs credible surprises....and really in end I hope Pakistan understands it is matter of making opportunity as far as possible .

It is that opportunity that is squelched in end for some setting of socio-poitical power arrangement and heavy social conservative aegis to back and burnish it..."at any cost")
Pakistan poor results (in both this domain, and others) are not intrinsic, they are manufactured and enforced....hoping that larger apathy sets in and entrenches further (so the prevailing situation remains as uncontested as possible).

In Pakistan, an archaeologist jumps over hoops to pursue her passions | The Express Tribune

Dr Asma Ibrahim encountered gender discrimination every step of the way but remained steadfast

tribune.com.pk

Asma Ibrahim - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Interview of Dr Asma Ibrahim, Nov. 2018, Karachi (Pakistan) — Shared Sacred Sites

Dr Asma Ibrahim is a leading Pakistani archeologist and museologist. She is currently Director of the State Bank of Pakistan Museum and Art Gallery, Karachi. Among the many achievements she has completed, she was in charge of the renovation works of Varun Dev Temple, located in Manora (Karachi). The

www.sharedsacredsites.net

I mean I have also seen Pakistanis do great overall when given the adequate opportunity, especially their formative years (0 - mid 20s year old etc)....just like any other folks in world.

There is specific problem entrenched in Pakistan itself.

It is largely why I have to look past large number of posters in this forum increasingly, they get caught up in circles regarding it to spend their time here. Easy fix need and angst in their head, and the vice they get hooked on from it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

While I am all for the debate/chat it (concept of "Ancient Pakistan") may at least spur in some broader way for Pakistanis to look into deeper arc of history concerning them....and putting aside the intrinsic problem of trying to short circuit the attested chronology of tribal/society identities and polities (simply using current nationstate name) ....there first needs to be lot of crucial steps that need demonstrable establishment and inertia in Pakistan's thinking especially regd those with sufficient power and influence.

i.e proof of pudding is in the eating.

A) if pre-Zia curriculum (regd Pakistan's heritage) is not achieved in a reset after he is gone, why is it not done so? It was that easy for something ilke this to catch and perpetuate?

B) if sufficient work, organisation and attention is not given to protecting and preserving the critical sites of interest found so far, whats point of exploring for more?

C) Proper grappling of what is the overall process needed to properly embed Pakistan into larger arc of the history of region it occupies and the Pakistani people themselves?

These are to reckon with the status quo of Pakistan asserted as zero sum definition wielded by elitists for their current narrow purposes it seems.

They have been able to make this disjointed and narrow as possible (for their own expedience and privileged insularity) in first place...Pakistan larger society also coerced into it and/or goes along with it or apathetic to it to large degrees.

It is unique distillation of problem that makes all kind of domains hard to bridge (be it historical study, economic study, sociopolitical study and all their applications for development and better understanding).

This thing that partition set in and Pakistan political elite entrenched further for their power trapping.

The attempted short circuiting past this in online circles (like I see all across this forum and fora in general) come off as frivolous pursuit to me in end. The best bits that may be generated from it (at their rare rates) are supposed to have meaningful realised impact or a decent chance of such, otherwise whats the point of too much debate for debate sake.

It is what upsets folks like you and @VCheng and number of others, because you have a greater understanding of how large parts of world get on with this in far better way....with far less of skewed lens and air gapping in play by power grouping perched and comfy....that dont want other parts of Pakistan to flower, seeing that as a threat to themselves. The larger masses should just make do and keep their heads down. That zero sum thinking. Then what are the larger masses to do about it? Reconcile best they can....and then we say everyone gets the leaders they deserve.

The proper hedging and allocation of things to their domain experts cohesively, professionally and structurally, without zero-sum fear on political privilege, narrative, ideology and so on....this has very little traction in Pakistan now, is it stuck that way?

There are historiographical difficulties in accepting the Aitzaz Ahsan thesis, but by itself, segregated from the difficulties mentioned, that arise out of a realisation that the Indus Valley was not in fact a unique river valley culture opposed by another, singular culture in the Ganga-Yamuna river culture, It is a strong supporting element in a Pakistani sense of nationhood. A very strong alternative to the Two Nation Theory, in fact, and far more credible, and something that makes the chronology of this idea perfectly logical, almost inevitable.

Just to balance the scales, and explain some references that might seem mysterious, South Asia is easily defined culturally (not in religious or in linguistic terms, but broader cultural and historical terms) into nine river cultures, and a littoral that features numerous rivers threading through it.

Readers might find identifying the nine an amusing diversion.

 

[Alter_Ego]

The problem is record keeping, attestations and evidence. The time periods in question during the bronze age and iron age are hit and miss regarding what was the state of the existing population during a migration. Was a weakened state from infighting or natural calamities etc what prompted ingress from another population and so on. These remain speculative without evidence.

Even when you keep the language family the same (but have the linguistic science to make out different branches to mark out population groups relative resident vs migrant during a transition from one to other as the cultural dominant one), the scant nature to establish what the contours of this shows up time and again during bronze and iron.

Take for example, the Armenians and the Caucusus + Eastern Anatolia region in general and substrate analysis:

Introduction to Classical Armenian

lrc.la.utexas.edu

Especially this part:

Modern scholarly views are just as wide-ranging. A common view is that the Armenians were of Indo-European stock and entered the region either along with the Phrygians from the Balkan region or with the Mitanni from the area of the Aral Sea. They encountered the Urartuan culture in a period of decline and eventually came to rule over them and other Caucasian groups in the region.

Another theory draws on linguistic similarities between the Armenian language and the Caucasian languages of the area to say that the Armenians had originally been themselves a Caucasian tribe which adopted an Indo-European tongue, and this Caucasian substrate is responsible for the fact that Armenian is rather genetically isolated among the Indo-European languages.

Yet another theory is that the Armenians are the most sedentary members of the original speakers of Proto-Indo-European; that the Indo-European languages originated in the transcaucasian region, but the Armenians, who chose not to migrate out of the area, were marginalized during periods of Hittite and Urartuan dominance.

Suffice it to say, the true origin of the Armenian peoples will remain shrouded in obscurity for some time to come.

Like Basque, there is another isolated language in this region w.r.t Georgian and the Kartvelian family.

In fact the caucus region has lot of isolated languages, with no relation to the other families or even each other (there seem to be 5 main families):

View attachment 65145

Languages of the Caucasus - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Interesting.
The theory that Indo-Europeans originated in the Caucasus sound plausable to me. Becase fair skin and blue eyes is a trait of people who live in high mountain geograpyy for substantial generations. It also may explain why indo-european was focused in a very small area and seemingly wasnt intermixed and washed away by constant migration and invasions from non-indo european ethnic groups.

Some of the high-mountain dwellers then moved to flatlands north of the Caucasus, and from there started to emigrate to rest of the EuroAsian landmass. Of course Caucasuian who stayed later got intermixed with people who migrated into the mountainous region.

 

[nahtanbob]

How many Indus Valley based empires has there been in Indian history (0-1947 AD) ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Interesting.
The theory that Indo-Europeans originated in the Caucasus sound plausable to me. Becase fair skin and blue eyes is a trait of people who live in high mountain geograpyy for substantial generations. It also may explain why indo-european was focused in a very small area and seemingly wasnt intermixed and washed away by constant migration and invasions from non-indo european ethnic groups.

Some of the high-mountain dwellers then moved to flatlands north of the Caucasus, and from there started to emigrate to rest of the EuroAsian landmass. Of course Caucasuian who stayed later got intermixed with people who migrated into the mountainous region.

This is arguable. It is necessary to understand that there were TWO movements of Proto-Indo-European language speakers, both in circular movements moving through Europe, the first time practically extinguishing the Anatolian farmers(1) and replacing them with the Beaker Culture, the second time(2) coming to rest in various geographies as Greek, Latin, Celtic, Slavic and German. These were among the Centum language portion of the Indo-European language family; the Satam languages, Iranian, Indo-Aryan and the Mitanni variation, stayed to the south and east of these Centum language loci.

(1) It is thought that the original population of Europe, probably largely Neanderthal, was added to by migrants from Anatolia, who brought with them the practice of agriculture. This mixed culture was then overwhelmed by the first incursion of the Indo-European speaking steppe dwellers from the East. The resultant Beaker Culture then receded as the steppe dwellers returned to the steppe, landing up finally in the Sintashta-Yamnaya complex, from which base the migrations westward starting again.

(2) This second time was when the westward migrations (and, for that matter, the Indo-Iranian migration, including the separate migration to Anatolia of the Mitanni) used the Sintashta-Yamnaya locations as a base and started from that.

 

[Lulldapull]

The Persians aspirated the sibilants of their cousins. So Sindhu became Hindu.
The Greeks, in turn, since the victories of the first emperors over Asia Minor, as citizens of the vast Achaemenid empire, travelled freely around it, as merchants, mercenaries, navigators of the watery borders, and found the east called Hindu. Their own accents took over, and the Hindu became 'indou, and Indikos.

From that time onwards, from about the 4th century BC, perhaps even the 5th century BC, the land across the Sindhu was known to the Greeks and the rest of the Europeans as Indikos, or as India. The Persians continued to use their original term, Hindu, and the word came to signify the land to the east of the Sindhu and the inhabitants of that land.

So the Persians named you hendu and you don’t like it?

 

[Joe Shearer]

So the Persians named you hendu and you don’t like it?

Grow up.

 

[SaadH]

Exactly exactly

It's about simply talking about it more and connecting it to your actual geographical history under your feet

As mentioned the ziaification excessively suppressed anything non islamic, that was not a service to the country or the people

This sort of acknowledgement would be useful to boost the national foundations and projection, not undermine it.

As it happens opportunistic Indians seized the neglected narrative and simply lay claim

If Pakistanis talk about the ancient history under their feet, in their country as ancient Pakistan Indians can only watch from a distance, ivc mostly in Pakistan anyway

Zia is a red herring, Bhutto was a bigger Islamist then Zia could ever hope to be, but no one mentions Bhutto's decade of devolution. Nasim Hijazi's popular islamist novels pre-date Zia...

Zia is a very convenient target for woefully ill-informed and outright ignorant millennial khooni liberals and their natural hindutva allies...

There's no such thing as pre-zia or post-zia. Pakistani population has always been highly conservative and islamist leaning. There was a reason Pakistan was carved out on a basis of religion, without this popular and grassroot sentiment, people would have been happy living in a fascist secular hindutva India.

Qadianis were declared Kafir under Bhutto, Indian movies and alcohol were also banned under Bhutto. Islamic bloc was launched by him and Hikmatyar and Masood (Islamist student leaders) were recruited by his ISI. Furthermore, Bhutto is considered the father of Pakistan's constitution which enshrined the role of Islam as well as Allah/Quranic supremacy into law.

 

[kambhakt]

Pakistan: The True Heir Of Indus Valley Civilization – Analysis​

The vision of Pakistan’s founder Muhammad Ali Jinnah, in the 1940s did not only constitute creation of a Muslim political entity at the expense of India’s Hindu domination. It was also embedded in thousands of years of historical and geographical realities. These aspects clearly emerge from Jinnah’s interviews given to foreign correspondents where he described the geopolitical importance of Pakistan. The two nation reality also did not emerge only because of the differences between Hindu and Muslim peoples. It was an outcome of thousands of years of historical, geographical and genetic distinction between the peoples of Indus Valley Civilization and those occupying the Gangetic plains.

The existence of Indus Valley Civilization emerged though the ruins at Harappa in Punjab, Pakistan which were first described by Charles Masson in 1842, in his “Narrative of Various Journeys in Balochistan, Afghanistan, and the Punjab.” Though the site was visited by General Alexander Cunningham in 1856, who later headed the archeological survey of northern India, it was in 1921-22 that the excavations began which unearthed the great civilization buried under the sand for thousands of years.

The irony of it all was that it was General Alexander Cunningham who allowed East Indian Railways which was constructing railway line between the cities of Lahore and Karachi, to use the ancient bricks recovered from these sites as track ballast for the 150 kilometers of nearby stretch and thus destroyed much of the city of Harappa (3300 BC – 1300 BC). Mohenjodaro (2600 BC – 1900 BC) in Sindh, Pakistan was excavated by 1931. Mehrgarh (7000 BC -. 2500 BC) in Balochistan, Pakistan was discovered in 1974 and the excavations continued from 1974-86 and again from 1997-2000. Rehman Dheri (4000 BC) in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa was excavated from 1976-1980. Based on recent evidence and analyses, archeologists and historians have proclaimed that Indus Valley Civilization is over 9000 years old, making it one of the oldest civilizations of the world.

The South Asian subcontinent is principally divided into two major geographical regions; the Indus Valley and its westerly inclined tributaries, and the Ganges Valley with its easterly inclined tributaries. In his book, “The Indus Saga and the Making of Pakistan,” Aitzaz Ahsan identifies the geographical divide between these two regions as the Gurdaspur-Kathiawar salient, a watershed which is southwesterly inclined down to the Arabian Sea. This watershed also depicted the dividing line between the peoples of Indus Valley Civilization and those of Gangetic plains and also corresponds almost exactly with the current day Pakistan-India border.

Historically, only the Mauryas, Muslims and the British amalgamated these two regions as a unified state. For most of the remaining history, when one empire did not rule both the regions as a unified state, the Indus Valley Civilizational domain was always governed as one separate political entity.

Rather than an unnatural creation as propounded by many, Pakistan much more than the Gangetic plains, is an appropriate and modern embodiment of thousands of years old Indus Valley Civilization. The historical, geographical and its people’s organic linkages with Arab, Persian, Turkic and South Central Asian populace also clearly differentiates it as a distinct and definite independent identity as compared to the rest of India.

The discovery of Indus Valley Civilization in the run up to 1947 independence of Pakistan and India provided Indian nationalist Hindus an opportunity, to embed their Vedic Hindu cultural identity in a civilization, which was one of the oldest civilizations on earth and also predated emergence of Islam. However, the later identification of emergence of Vedic Hindu cultural traditions between 1500 – 600 BC, discounted such linkages. Also, the fact that Indus Valley Civilization’s cultural moorings were discovered mainly in the Indus River Valley, and partly in Ghaggar-Hakra basin and in the Doab, these cultural moorings did not find an extension into the central and lower Ganges Valley in the eastern and central Indian plains. The presence of fortified cities, town planning and drainage system, depiction of specialized epic art form and the architecture of burnt bricks, sea trade, use of seals, weights, measures and script and the custom of burying the dead in cemeteries, presented clear differentiation because of the absence of such depiction in Vedic Hindu literature and culture.

Many adherents of Indian Hindu nationalist ideology believed that India was and is a primarily Hindu nation and has Hindu religious culture in continuity from Vedic Aryans. The mosaic of cultures of the past evolving into composite Indian Hindu culture through the process of history was not based on archeological evidence but what they essentially believed in. In many cases distorting and manipulating or even forging the mute archaeological evidence through depiction of fire places as fire altars, waste pits as sacrificial pits in Harappan era sites and the imaginary reading of Sanskrit legends, was quoted in order to suit their pseudo-ideological and opportunistic interests.

Between 1900-1300 BC the civilization declined and there were no more references to Meluhha (Mesopotamian name for Indus Valley Civilization landmass) in Mesopotamian finds. However, the people who made up this great civilization continued living in places like Mehrgarh, Harappa, Mohenjodaro and other settlements long after that.

The legacy of Indus Valley Civilization lives on in present day Pakistan. Amongst some of the aspects that can still be traced to this legacy are the trade and commerce routes developed by the mentors of this great civilization. Ships from Meluhha regularly sailed from locations near modern day city of Karachi for the ports of Babylon. And they evidently made stops all along the way, as indicated through discovery of seals found in Oman, Abu Dhabi and Bahrain as well.

The city of Peshawar lies on what is thought to have been one of their main overland trade routes. That route is now a major highway that constitutes the eastern approach to the Khyber Pass and links the northwestern Indus River Plain to the highlands of Afghanistan and Central Asia. An old branch of the route runs from Peshawar, south into rugged tribal territory, through the Pakistani cities of Kohat and Bannu and the foothills of the Suleiman Mountains down across the Gomal Plain to the early historical site of Rehman Dheri.

After the decline of this civilization, the religion and language of which has still not been deciphered, at different times these people followed Vedic Hindu culture and traditions, also adopted Buddhism and in the end embraced Islam and are now overwhelmingly Muslim.

The core spread of Indus Valley Civilization primarily lay in Pakistan. The three major cities and many other sites which represent the core of Indus Valley Civilization are all located in Pakistan. However, the Indians still refer to India as the “Home of Indus Valley Civilization,” which is surprising and indeed a misnomer. India needs to realign its history and should seek its identity in its own legacy instead of claiming something to which they do not belong to.

It is the people of Pakistan who represent one of the oldest civilizations on earth. Indus Valley Civilization’s legacy is linked to Pakistan and this fact cannot be denied. The people of Pakistan thus rightly claim to be the true heirs of Indus Valley Civilization.

Pakistan: The True Heir Of Indus Valley Civilization – Analysis

The vision of Pakistan's founder Muhammad Ali Jinnah, in the 1940s did not only constitute creation of a Muslim political entity at the expense of India's Hindu domination. It was also embedded in thousands of years of historical and geographical realities. These aspects clearly emerge from...

www.eurasiareview.com

There are repeated attempts by Pakistani scholars to take exclusive ownership of the Indus Valley Civilization. These are always from blog posts or articles published in non standard publications and without peer review. They need to publish these in journals respected by the world of archeology.

Unfortunately, the people of Indus Valley did not know that there would be a Pakistan and an India 5000 years in the future and did not realize that they had to stick to the Pakistan side.

 

[Developereo]

Zia is a red herring, Bhutto was a bigger Islamist then Zia could ever hope to be, but no one mentions Bhutto's decade of devolution. Nasim Hijazi's popular islamist novels pre-date Zia...

Zia is a very convenient target for woefully ill-informed and outright ignorant millennial khooni liberals and their natural hindutva allies...

While it is true that Bhutto started the trend to appease the mullahs, and let's not even get into his racism against Bengalis, the fact remains that Pakistani schoolbooks during his time had not purged out the pre-Islamic history of the land. That only happened in Zia's time.

 

[SaadH]

While it is true that Bhutto started the trend to appease the mullahs, and let's not even get into his racism against Bengalis, the fact remains that Pakistani schoolbooks during his time had not purged out the pre-Islamic history of the land. That only happened in Zia's time.

Please produce one pre-Zia textbook which taught pre-islamic history of Pakistan...

 

[Developereo]

Please produce one pre-Zia textbook which taught pre-islamic history of Pakistan...

LOL, how am I going to find an old Pakistani schoolbook online?

Talk to someone who studied in a decent English medium school in Karachi before the 1980s.

 

[Musings]

There are repeated attempts by Pakistani scholars to take exclusive ownership of the Indus Valley Civilization. These are always from blog posts or articles published in non standard publications and without peer review. They need to publish these in journals respected by the world of archeology.

Unfortunately, the people of Indus Valley did not know that there would be a Pakistan and an India 5000 years in the future and did not realize that they had to stick to the Pakistan side.

The IVC belongs to the actual land and soil. That soil is today called Pakistan. Whether it’s a blog or an article that doesn’t follow your line of thought doesn’t frankly matter. The area today known as Pakistan includes the heart and core of the IVC. I’m not attempting to chest thump - it’s just the fact