Indus Valley Civilisation is largest source of ancestry for South Asians

[kambhakt]

The IVC belongs to the actual land and soil. That soil is today called Pakistan. Whether it’s a blog or an article that doesn’t follow your line of thought doesn’t frankly matter. The area today known as Pakistan includes the heart and core of the IVC. I’m not attempting to chest thump - it’s just the fact

It is not my line of thoughts or your line of thoughts that matter. It is to be peer reviewed. Show me one eminent non Pakistani archeologists that agrees with the article, and I will agree with it.

 

[Alter_Ego]

This is arguable. It is necessary to understand that there were TWO movements of Proto-Indo-European language speakers, both in circular movements moving through Europe, the first time practically extinguishing the Anatolian farmers(1) and replacing them with the Beaker Culture, the second time(2) coming to rest in various geographies as Greek, Latin, Celtic, Slavic and German. These were among the Centum language portion of the Indo-European language family; the Satam languages, Iranian, Indo-Aryan and the Mitanni variation, stayed to the south and east of these Centum language loci.

(1) It is thought that the original population of Europe, probably largely Neanderthal, was added to by migrants from Anatolia, who brought with them the practice of agriculture. This mixed culture was then overwhelmed by the first incursion of the Indo-European speaking steppe dwellers from the East. The resultant Beaker Culture then receded as the steppe dwellers returned to the steppe, landing up finally in the Sintashta-Yamnaya complex, from which base the migrations westward starting again.

(2) This second time was when the westward migrations (and, for that matter, the Indo-Iranian migration, including the separate migration to Anatolia of the Mitanni) used the Sintashta-Yamnaya locations as a base and started from that.

bhai interesting read

But let me propose that the earliest migration of anatolian farmers happened after the end of the ice age in Europe, naturally as climate became less frosty.

The first advanced hominids in Europe was Neanderthals. They intermixed with waves of Homo Sapiens who came out from Africa via Levatine-Anatolian and Iberia-Morrocan roads, entering Europe around 30-50Kyr ago, during past Glacial Period Weichsel.

 

[Kambojaric]

There are historiographical difficulties in accepting the Aitzaz Ahsan thesis, but by itself, segregated from the difficulties mentioned, that arise out of a realisation that the Indus Valley was not in fact a unique river valley culture opposed by another, singular culture in the Ganga-Yamuna river culture, It is a strong supporting element in a Pakistani sense of nationhood. A very strong alternative to the Two Nation Theory, in fact, and far more credible, and something that makes the chronology of this idea perfectly logical, almost inevitable.

Speaking in the language of political theory and IR, Pakistani nationalism falls within the category of peripheral nationalism i.e. it was (in our opinion of course) a completely legitimate reaction to the wider nationalism prevailing in the Raj.

The reasons range from the obvious religious angle to the way the British developed the different regions of South Asia. The Indus region was treated as an agricultural and military recruitment hub and modern Pakistan is a representation of this. India got its Bombays and Calcuttas whereas Lahore and Karachi were second tier cities in the Raj. We could not compete in the new India that would emerge.

Coming back to the Pakistani sense of nationhood, our landed and military elites have however not allowed the national identity to evolve beyond the vision of a peripheral nationalism. A threatened and under siege mentality does not give space for open minded and inclusionary mindsets. What should have been the problem of just one starting generation has however compounded to a cross generational crises.

Most if not all nations are founded on a myth, and the IVC and Indus based identity despite the flaws in Ahsans thesis are as good as it can get for Pakistan to evolve its identity beyond the peripheral and under siege mindset. How this change will come about, I have absolutely no idea.

 

[r3alist]

There are repeated attempts by Pakistani scholars to take exclusive ownership of the Indus Valley Civilization. These are always from blog posts or articles published in non standard publications and without peer review. They need to publish these in journals respected by the world of archeology.

Unfortunately, the people of Indus Valley did not know that there would be a Pakistan and an India 5000 years in the future and did not realize that they had to stick to the Pakistan side.

What a nonsense point

It's simply about taking an interest in your own ancestral land and look at the significant findings pertaining to ivc found without really trying to find much



You will note that Hindus get very nervous when this happens



The people of the ivc would not also know that thousands of years later there would be a nation called India

 

[VCheng]

The attempted short circuiting past this in online circles (like I see all across this forum and fora in general) come off as frivolous pursuit to me in end. The best bits that may be generated from it (at their rare rates) are supposed to have meaningful realised impact or a decent chance of such, otherwise whats the point of too much debate for debate sake.

It is what upsets folks like you and @VCheng and number of others, because you have a greater understanding of how large parts of world get on with this in far better way....with far less of skewed lens and air gapping in play by power grouping perched and comfy....that dont want other parts of Pakistan to flower, seeing that as a threat to themselves. The larger masses should just make do and keep their heads down. That zero sum thinking. Then what are the larger masses to do about it? Reconcile best they can....and then we say everyone gets the leaders they deserve.

As I have said before, Pakistan is what it is today by design and conscious effort, and what you or I may see as a problem is regarded as a desirable feature by those in control - for their own purposes, of course. In that sense, history, as is the topic of this thread, is nothing more than what it is desired to be to serve a purpose for the present and not what it truly was, to be changed and changed again as needed, in the best 1984 traditions.

I had hoped this forum would be better than that, but, alas, for many reasons, it was not to be - as we can see. What is funny and sad at the same time is that it does not upset me anymore, since I now approach it as The Shiite Hysteria and Commiebot Vomitus Chronicles, and it makes perfect comedic sense.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Good to know that you Indians are our childern.

You must have cracked every exam with consummate ease. You will go far.

 

[Taimoor]

You must have cracked every exam with consummate ease. You will go far.

Dont need a PHD to come to this simple conclusion old fella. Its not difficult is it?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dont need a PHD to come to this simple conclusion old fella. Its not difficult is it?

I wouldn't know. I'm not the one who failed a PhD.

 

[Joe Shearer]

bhai interesting read

But let me propose that the earliest migration of anatolian farmers happened after the end of the ice age in Europe, naturally as climate became less frosty.

The first advanced hominids in Europe was Neanderthals. They intermixed with waves of Homo Sapiens who came out from Africa via Levatine-Anatolian and Iberia-Morrocan roads, entering Europe around 30-50Kyr ago, during past Glacial Period Weichsel.

Nothing to disagree with here. Nothing that contradicts the narrative provided.

No problem.

 

[Nilgiri]

Interesting.
The theory that Indo-Europeans originated in the Caucasus sound plausable to me. Becase fair skin and blue eyes is a trait of people who live in high mountain geograpyy for substantial generations. It also may explain why indo-european was focused in a very small area and seemingly wasnt intermixed and washed away by constant migration and invasions from non-indo european ethnic groups.

Some of the high-mountain dwellers then moved to flatlands north of the Caucasus, and from there started to emigrate to rest of the EuroAsian landmass. Of course Caucasuian who stayed later got intermixed with people who migrated into the mountainous region.

From what I remember, the light blue eyes and blond hair evolved (past fairer skin which happened quickly given advantage of less vitamin D needed etc for melanin) w.r.t precise set of genetic mutations in northern latitudes in Europe, when the original homo sapiens entered area in paleolithic.

Similar mutations may have independently arisen with the (at the time native resident) populations of Neanderthals propelled by same environmental circumstance (of significantly less sunlight and UV protection need etc)....but at lower propensity compared to Homo Sapiens (but I dont remember, you going to have to look this up if interested).

I am unsure if yamnaya had any evidence of the blue eyes + blond hair stuff, they have the same paler skin drive factor from same paleolithic+neolithic time spent (post Homo Sapien exit out of Africa etc) at their relative latitude in steppe/blacksea/caucusus. But I think most DNA evidence and reconstruction on hand did not have them with such...i.e wasnt quite the same thing as northern european (and the blue eyes come mostly or entirely from the neolithic populations pre-yamnaya arc and then subsequent time drive since the yamnaya mixing etc)... I could be wrong.